Podcast episode 014: Tim Challies on history, evangelism, technology, culture and more
Tim Challies is known throughout the Christian world as a prolific and insightful blogger and author. More recently, he has turned his hand to documentary film-making, with a new project in the works looking at the history of Christianity through significant objects.
While in Sydney to look at some of our Christian treasures (like the First Fleet Bible), Tim dropped into the CCL studio for a wide-ranging and fascinating chat about history, technology, evangelism, Billy Graham, Western culture and more.
Links referred to:
- Justin Moffatt talking about the First Fleet Bible.
(The photo of the First Fleet Bible’s interior that accompanies this post is used with permission from Justin Moffatt, Senior Minister of Church Hill Anglican.)
- Tim Challies’ post “The mischievous Protestant’s guide to Catholic Rome”, which contains photos and a brief explanation of “The Triumph of Faith over Heresy”, a sculpture by Pietro Le Gros, which Tim mentions in this interview.
- The Matthias Media special page featuring The Good Life in the Last Days.
Runtime: 27:51 min. Subscribe via
Tony Payne:Hello, everyone! Tony here. It’s going to be a slightly different kind of podcast today: normally we focus on a particular theme and explore that theme of Christian living with a guest. But today’s episode is a more wide-ranging conversation, and that’s because of how it came about: recently Tim Challies was passing through Sydney. Tim is well known as a blogger and author, and he spent a morning here at Moore College doing some research for a particular project he’s working on that you’ll hear about in today’s episode. And I managed to grab Tim just quickly for a conversation for the podcast, and we talked about history and technology, we talked about evangelism and Billy Graham, we talked about trends in our culture, and a bunch of other things. It was a fascinating and really encouraging conversation, and I hope you think so too as you listen to this episode of the Centre for Christian Living podcast.
TP: Hello, I’m Tony Payne, and welcome to the Centre for Christian Living podcast coming to you from Moore College in Sydney, Australia. And as I’ve said, today’s episode features a conversation with Tim Challies. Tim’s a writer, an elder at his local church in Toronto, a husband to Aileen, and the father of three teenage kids.
But Tim is, perhaps, best known as one of the most prolific and skillful bloggers to emerge in evangelical Christianity over the past decade. According to his website, Tim has now posted something on his blog every single day for 5,260 days. That’s quite extraordinary! And the thoughtfulness and insight of so many of those posts is really what has made Tim so well-known and well-loved right around the world.
And I started by asking him what had brought him from Canada to the far-flung shores of Australia.
Tim Challies: I’m here as part of this church history project I’m working on. So I’ve got this project called Epic and it’s a project that’s taken me around the world and through the ages, so to speak. So the idea is I’m trying to find objects that tell a story beyond themselves: I’m trying to tell the history of the Christian faith through these historical objects. So everywhere I go, I’m trying to find objects that have some significance beyond themselves, and then through that object, to tell a story. And I’m using objects because I think they’re a neat tangible link to history. It’s not abstract history. Here’s something you can see and touch and feel, or at least look at behind a piece of glass. And it tells you an interesting story.
TP: So you’re here at Moore College at the moment. What sort of objects have you been looking at here at Moore College?
TC: Right. So I came to Sydney to look specifically at the [First] Fleet Bible. Just—there’s a Bible that was—that accompanied Richard Johnson on the First Fleet, and probably the Bible he preached the very first sermon out of on Australian soil. And so associated with that is a number of objects. So there’s a concordance that came along with him, a neat artifact that was signed by John Thornton and then went to Johnson, and from Johnson, to Samuel Marsden. So really neat provenance in a book like that. But then also a copy of his address to the inhabitants of the colony here, which I think—we don’t know what Rich—what he preached. We know his text for his first sermon; we don’t know what he actually said. But as we read that little booklet, I think we get a good sense that this man was a gospel preacher. So whatever he said in the first sermon on Australian soil, I’m pretty sure it was a call to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. That just seemed to be who he was.
TP: It did seem to be who he was. He was an evangelical chaplain.
TP: What sort of sense do you get of Johnson and of those early days of Christianity in Australia just by looking at these artifacts? What sort of stories do they tell you?
TC: Yeah. I think you got to back up a little bit back to England, where it was Wilberforce and Newton and the Clapham Sect that were realising there’s a new colony to be made. We want to make sure we get a chaplain part of that. And so Wilberforce got in touch with William Pitt and said, “Hey, my friend, let us send a chaplain along,” and Pitt said, “Sure, and you can even choose the chaplain.” And so this wasn’t going to be some namby pamby kind of guy who’s just going to go and go about his … his church functions, you know. This was a man who was going to go and preach the gospel. They chose someone who had actually preached at Newton’s church; they were familiar with him. And so they chose a gospel man to go along. Which, I think, is a beautiful thing.
And so, he shows up here and that’s his task is to preach the gospel. And as he interacts with the governors here—the first governor—seems to be somebody who’s just a moralist: he doesn’t want gospel preaching; he just wants his men to start behaving themselves, ’cause they’re convicts. So he wants this preacher just to, you know, help these men be a little bit better. And the second governor is a real antagonist, and he’s really pushing back hard, and so Johnson is—he’s suffering through all of this, and really having a hard go. And yet, when we read his book, we see that, okay, he suffered, but he continued to preach the gospel: he was still a gospel man. And, I mean, you think about Australia today: not exactly known as being a great Christian nation. And yet you go back to the roots, you think, here, right from the beginning, the gospel’s a part of this country from the very get-go.
TP: Perhaps it says something about Australia that, right at the very beginning, our response to Richard Johnson was to burn the church down.
TC: Yeah, right. [Laughter.] Yeah, yeah. So first moralism and then antagonism and then burning his church down. Exactly, so, yeah, I think there’s probably a little bit of significance in there!
TP: So it—that does tell us something about Australia and about its spiritual history—about its gospel history—and even though that was a long time ago, you can actually see some of those strains running through the history of the church in Australia: the antagonism to the gospel; the need to keep preaching the gospel in the face of that; the difficulty of doing that, and so on.
What about some of the other places you’ve been to and some of the other stories that you’ve started to tell and find? What has sort of stuck out to you so far?
TC: Yeah, there’s been a couple of things that, I think, are sort of rising to the top of my mind. One was Amy Carmichael’s Bible. So I was recently in Northern Ireland, and in the public records office there, you can just get Amy Carmichael’s Bible and you can sit down and flip through it and read it. And—so she ministered for years over in India and took detailed notes in her Bible. So it’s one of those Bibles where every second page was blank. So you have a page of Scripture and a page for notes, and her—I mean, she read her Bible and she absorbed her Bible and she had this colour coding system, the key all written out at the beginning of the Bible. So it was fascinating just to see her interaction with the Bible and to read some of the Psalms that she was going through a difficult time and her reflections on it, and—I mean, that’s—there’s something so real about that history. This isn’t just a Bible, but this was something that she lived through this Bible. This Bible is encouraging her and propping her up and carrying her through her ministry. And so through Amy Carmichael, I want to tell the history of women in missions and the crucial role, and often overlooked role they’ve played in missionary endeavours.
And another object I absolutely love is a sculpture in a church in Rome. And so, travelling through Rome, I went into the church of Jesus—the head church of the Jesuit order—and I was looking for the arm bone of Saint Francis Xavier, which is on display there. And I looked at it, you know, studied it and just watched people venerate it, and all that. And I wanted to use that as an object to kind of summarise Roman Catholicism. Turned around and saw this remarkable sculpture behind me—this huge huge sculpture. And that—it appeared to be a woman throwing some people down into hell. And … so I went over and I studied it for a while, and I think—I think that’s either Mary or the church in female form, and then looked at these men who are falling into hell, and thought, “They’ve got some books with them,” and I went over really close and actually had to turn on a light and shine it on the book, and I saw it written on the spine of one book was, “Luther” and written on the spine of the other book was “Calvin”. And so, here is Mary throwing Luther and Calvin into hell, while this cherub tears their books apart. And so I thought, “Oh, this is just fascinating.” Like, here is the Reformation right here: just down the way we’ve got where Luther went and saw the sacred stairs, people going up on their knees; here’s a church right here the Jesuit order founded against Protestantism; and here’s this amazing representation of what they were about, consigning the Reformers and the Reformation to hell.
TC: I mean, that’s just an amazing link to history, right?
TP: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
TC: And hundreds of people go through the church, and nobody knows what they’re seeing there. Nobody knows the link to the Reformers. You got to look hard to see that.
TP: Well, why’s history important? Why are you so passionate about this? ’Cause you clearly are.
TC:Yeah. I think it’s because so many people are coming to Christ, and Sydney, like Toronto, is a world city. So we’re not just seeing people like us come to Christ; we’re seeing people from all across the world come to Christ. They don’t have Christian roots. They don’t—they don’t have a Judeo Christian background. They’re coming here from all these different nations—coming to Christ. I want them to understand that when you become a Christian, the history of the church becomes your history. So if you’re adopted into a family and you take on the last name of that family, the family history becomes yours. That’s just the way adoption works. Well you’re—when you’re adopted into the family of God, you take on the history of the church with all its good and all its bad.
You also take on the future of the church. You become responsible for the future history of the church. We have to know our roots. We have to know where we’re come from, because so many things repeat themselves. You know? A few years ago, we’re hearing about the emerging church, and people are really concerned about this. But it was best answered by going back to theological liberalism of the early 1900s. It was no different. If we know our history, we know how to deal with the present and deal with the future. So I just—and—so I’m trying to make history, in a sense, come alive, I think: here are these tangible links to history that, if you go this museum, look for this object and just study this object—engage with that object—it will tell you a story, if you’re willing.
TP: ’Cause our lives are a story, aren’t they: they go somewhere. We don’t just emerge as a Christian in a—into a kind of a vacuum to live the Christian life. We’re part of something—
TP: —part of a church, part a culture. And you’re right: if you don’t know your history, it’s—you’re very often doomed to repeat it. And I’ve certainly seen that many times in Australian culture.
TC: Yeah. I think one of the benefits we’re seeing in the Christian world today is more understanding of all of history is a story, right? Where God really is telling a story that begins with creation and then plummets into Fall, and then there’s the redemption and the waiting consummation. So there is a storyline—a plotline—to all of human existence from beginning to end. And then—so in this micro form, each one of us has a story as well: we were created and we fell and we were redeemed, and we’re awaiting that consummation. And so, yeah, we—the history of the church really is a story; the history of our lives is a story; and, again, in each of these objects in their own way is part of that story: we’re telling just a little glimpse of it.
TP: It’s interesting that living the Christian life … living out the gospel in our lives, we often think of it in terms of there are certain things to obey, there are certain things to avoid, we often think of it in terms of the commands that we have, and that’s very true: there are things we’re commanded to, and the call of God on our lives takes different forms, in a way. But one way—and this is what you’re bringing out—is that one way that God calls us to live a new life is to be part of a new story—to be part of a whole new way of thinking about who we are—a whole new narrative, as it were. Now, you can get—people can get a little bit kind of airy fairy about this—about narratives and stories and—
TP: —get kind of too … but as you expressed it, that story really is that we’re on a journey from having been saved and redeemed by Christ to the new creation—to the heavenly rest—and that’s our current story, as it were: we’re on that journey, and how we live—it’s interesting in the New Testament how often the Christian life is cast as a living out of this history we’re part of and that we’re going to: we live the way we do now because of … actually where we belong, which is heaven.
TC: I think one of the things we see is people ending that story too soon. So as Christians, we understand we’ve got a history; we understand we’ve got a present; and we tend to think our future just sort of ends at death, and then maybe there’s this sort of ephemeral view of heaven beyond. But I think what we really have to fix in our minds is that when we die, the story’s really just getting started. So we have this tiny short little life of 70, 80 or 90 years, or whatever it is, and then we really get to live. So there’s so much in this world where we don’t get to experience all the things we want to experience—don’t get to do all the things—there’s so much failure, so many dreams that go undone, so many people doing things that they would rather be doing something else—they don’t get to live out their passion.
But when we focus on story, we see there’s—most of the story’s yet to be written, because we do have all of eternity awaiting us. So I think that gives us such hope. And people who are living lives they wish they weren’t, or wanting to do more, you get that; you don’t have to do it all right now. You can let some dreams go now and trust that God will—it’ll be much the same in the future; those dreams, those desires, those passions will probably live on and you’ll be able to explore them in a perfect world without fear, without pain, without sin. Yeah, I think there’s such joy there in continuing the story to its real end, which is no end.
TP: Yeah, indeed. It’s very striking following the recent passing of Dr Billy Graham, the quote that’s been posted everywhere of his, of course, says that, you know, “If you hear reports of my death, don’t believe it—”
TP: “I’ve just changed address.”
TP: That was the—that was his story. That’s what he so firmly believed. What’s your reflection looking back on … what Billy Grah—on the story of Billy Graham in North American and world Christianity, because it’s almost at this moment with his passing you stop and think, “There’s someone who has changed the course of our Christian history in some ways.”
TC: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he had a tremendous ministry—tremendous influence—but in a very unique time and a very unique culture—a cultural moment. And it’s really impossible to imagine that happening again, or at least happening any time soon, that era of revivalism and being able to show up in a city for a month of evenings and just keep preaching and preaching, and people keep showing up. It seems like that was a period—it happened that way, it worked—but then that ship has sailed. So it seems today that the … the mass evangelism isn’t done that through that, but through personal relationships and just individuals like you and me having to reach out to the people around us and draw them in.
And, you know, maybe the Lord will bring along another revival preacher like that. I don’t know; I’ll be interested in seeing—the best biographies of people aren’t written until after they’ve gone to be with the Lord, and that’s good and that’s fair. But I think there will be some really honest evaluations of his ministry coming out over the next few years, and I’ll be fascinated to read them, because there was so much good, and yet there were real concerns as well, such as, by the end of his life, the way he was speaking about what sounded almost like universalism, there were the connections to Catholicism and the discomfort with that, and yet who can deny the fruit of the ministry? And so as you study history, you see that all of our heroes are flawed. There was just one unflawed hero, and the rest of us are a mess of contradictions, and so it’s so interesting to see that in a life like his and in every other life, and inevitably in my own as well.
TP: I think that’s how he’s felt about here in Australia very much as well—as someone, of course, who took some positions and formed some alliances that looked unwise—
TP: —but that had a—who had a massive effect on Australian Christianity—
TP: —where the Billy Graham crusades of the late 50s here were huge. I mean, still the largest crowd ever to have gathered in Australia in history (I think this is true) is the crowd that gathered for his Melbourne crusades in 1959.
TP: Certainly that’s the record for that sporting ground, certainly.
And the effect that his coming had in ’59, ’68, ’79—especially ’59—had a huge influence on Australian Christianity. But as you say, it was contextual: the reason so many people were converted in 1959 and less were converted in ’68 and even less in ’79—
TP: —if we—if you trace those things through—was not that he preached less effectively or did anything different; it’s largely—it was largely to do what the churches themselves were doing.
TC: Sure, yeah.
TP: Churches were evangelising in 1959, and if you’re an evangelising church and a crusade comes along, you see enormous fruit.
TP: With all the work you’re doing suddenly sort of comes to harvest.
TC: Right, right.
TP: Whereas that started to diminish within Australian churches in ’68 and ’79. The churches that really benefitted in 1979 were—I myself went to Billy Graham and it had a huge impact on my life as a 16-17-year-old in 1979. The churches that really saw people come to know the Lord and saw fruit were those churches who were still evangelising. It’s fascinating.
TC: Yeah. And it makes sense, and there’s also just more of a Judeo Christian background in culture at the time—
TP: In 1959!
TC: And—in 1959—and then decreasing through every other crusade, and so you had some links that you had common language you could use, or common general understandings. In today’s world, if Billy Graham stands up and preaches to my community, he doesn’t have any links to those people. They have no knowledge of Jesus, no knowledge of sin, no knowledge of Scripture … none of that. And so, that kind of preaching really depended upon a certain level of understanding—a certain level of agreed-upon language or just worldview. And I think that’s largely gone missing. And so, the next revival preacher will probably perhaps be a little bit more like an apologist or something—somebody who’s really—he’s dealing with a whole different realm of understanding. It’s a—I spoke at my son’s school a little while ago—just to one of his classes. But the children there, not one of them had a church background; not one of them goes to church; not one of them prays, read the Bible, has ever read a Bible. All they know about it is it’s bigoted and it’s horrible. And so the world has changed so dramatically.
TP: In this way, Canada and Australia are more alike, say—
TP: —more alike than they are both from the US—
TP: —in the sense that we’re a very pagan place here in Australia—
TP: And I don’t think we could say we’re post-Christian in a sense; I’m not sure we ever have been Christian as a culture—
TC: Right, right, yeah.
TP: It’s—and in a way, that has shaped Australian evangelism and it’s shaped a lot of Australian evangelicalism.
TP: We preach the gospel in a context where you can’t assume a shared knowledge or a biblical literacy—
TC: Right. Yeah.
TP: —or anything like that. And that’s—
TP: That’s where something like Two Ways to Live came from, for example.
TP: It came as a gospel outline to share with someone who had zero background.
TC: Right. Yeah. So you’re building up a Christian worldview and, as you know, in a multicultural city like this, you’re often engaging with Muslims or with Sikhs or with people who have a very different view of the world. But in some way, you have more in common there than with a very secular Australian or Canadian, I think, in that they have certain parts of a
worldview: there is a God, there is morality, there is a heaven, there is a hell, and you have some common language. And your job is to introduce the concept of grace, which is, of course, missing from all those others.
You mentioned our cultures being alike, and I think—I absolutely agree. Geography can be a little misleading. So I live about an hour from the American border. But if I fly around the world and come to Australia, I feel much more at home; these are my people in a way that Americans aren’t, or just—our countries are so similar. Same with Scotland: I can go there and I just feel like I fit in. So somehow these British colonies or whatever we are—Commonwealth countries—there is a shared personality and a shared paganism or something like that, as opposed to American evangelicalism, Bible belt and so on.
TP: Yeah, which takes us back to history, right, and to the way we’ve become the way we are. We tend to think of the current moment always—every generation, I think, does this—as unique and no one has ever experienced what we’re experiencing now.
TC: [Laughs.] Yeah.
TP: We feel a—say—especially in Canada and Australia, but increasingly in other western countries—we feel this sense of it being a more and more pagan place—of Christianity being more margin—marginalised and of there even being more of a hostility towards Christianity than we’ve experienced in a little while. But it’s … as you think about Christian history, that’s not the first time that’s been the case, right?
TP: —in the church’s life?
TC: Right. Yeah, we’ve had this little glimpse of a couple of hundred years
where Christianity has been respected and respectable. But that is—that is not typical historically. So you just have to go back and read the New Testament and see that their Christian ideas were absolutely outside of the box and absolutely repugnant to people, and a lot of it was Christian sexual morality was what made people so angry, because in that day, you have men with concubines and mistresses, and pederasty was widely accepted, and here come these Christians talking about “Love your wife” and “Honour your wife” and, I mean, though, the wife has rights over her husband’s body—this is like mindblowing.
Not only that, but it’s the kind of morality that threatens to undermine society. And so, heavily push back against it. This could destabilise the entire empire. I think we’re seeing a little bit of that again today as our countries change. So Christians are more and more seen as being the destabilising force, not the stablising force. That’s through sexual morality and everything really building a cohesive, strong society, but we’re now we’re threatening to dismantle it.
And so, yeah, the more you read in history, the more you see that we’ll be okay: the gospel will go on, the church will survive. But it may be difficult times, and what are we doing with the last bit of time? This may be the last bit of time we have where we have real freedom to worship, real freedom to evangelise. What are we doing with it? Because this may not last long before it’s much much more difficult and there’s much higher consequences. So let’s use these days.
TP: What you just said reminded me of what you said about Richard Johnson: to some extent, he was acceptable and would have been acceptable insofar as he preached a message of moral stabilisation among the riotous Rum Corps—
TP: —and the convicts and so on. The more he wanted to preach the gospel of repentance, the more radical and revolutionary that is in any culture.
TC: Even in 1790! I mean, this was the golden age of Christianity: people backed—the modern missions movement was just going, the Clapham Sect was in full effect … I mean, this was a great time. And yet, here he is, preaching the gospel and taking it on the chin for doing that. So, it has not—we look back as if everything was golden, but it really really hasn’t been.
TP: Indeed. One of the other things, of course, you’re very well known for is your writing about technology. In some ways, the—your current project is “Let me tell the story of our past”—
TP: And your book on technology is called The Next Story.
TC: Right! Yeah.
TP: How are those two things connected for you? Like, they seem like quite different interests.
TP: But maybe they’re not as different as they seem.
TC: No, I don’t think they are, because technology and Christianity are closely related: Christians have—the gospel message is communication. Communication takes technology. So we forget that the book is technology—that the printing press was a world-changing technology. You cannot understand the Reformation without the printing press, because it allowed the Scriptures, primarily, and other material to be printed and distributed much more quickly and efficiently than ever before. Reformation could not have happened without the Bible and the printing press.
You go back to the early church and you’ve got this Roman road system that Caesar Augustus and others were building so they could transport soldiers and, to some degree, trade. But it also made this amazing network for the spreading of Christian gospel to go from town to town: missionaries could walk those roads and very safely and comfortably cross the empire.
And so, you know, radio, television—we talked about Billy Graham taking advantage of television as that medium came along. And so Christians have always taken advantage of technology to further the spread of the gospel. So think that’s where the link is: history, technology, Christianity—there’s a very close relationship between them.
TP: Yeah. Listen, I know you know you have to catch—literally catch a plane.
TP: Tell us about … just conclude by telling us about the project you’re working on, when we might see it, what we need to look out for—
TC: All right.
TP: —in order to sort of see the fruits of the research you’re—
TC: Right. Yeah, so we’re off to New Zealand very shortly to follow the Samuel Marsden trail, which, of course, starts here in Sydney and then over there, and then also some Pacific Islands objects that are over there. Sydney, of course, being the sending place for ministry to New Zealand to the Pacific Islands. So another link to Sydney here.
The book and documentary (we’re hoping to release both at the same time) should be out in January 2020 is the current plan. Sometime them around then.
TP: And is there a title we look for?
TC: I’d look for Epic as a title and possibly something like “The history of Christianity in 36 objects” or something along those lines. That’s all still to be decided.
TP: Well, it’s been lovely to see you, however briefly.
TC: [Laughs] Thank you.
TP: Thank you for your ministry to us through the blog over so many years.
TP: I know you have many readers in Australia who’ve appreciated your faithfulness and consistency in just keeping on bringing the Bible to bear on issue after issue over such a long period of time.
TC: Yeah, it was my pleasure.
TP: Thank you for your ministry. And thank you for stopping and talking with us at the Centre for Christian Living.
TC: Yeah, it was fun!
TP:Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Tim Challies as much as I did. And if you want to hear more of Tim or read more of Tim, head over to his blog at challies.com, where you can also subscribe, of course, to get regular updates of his material and to hear more about his history project as it comes to fruition.
And speaking, of course, of subscribing, of course I would like you to subscribe to the CCL podcast. But can I also ask that you tell your friends about the CCL podcast—that you share about us on Facebook or just chat at church and let people know how useful you’re finding the podcast (if, in fact, you are) and where they can get hold of it. Keep spreading the word about our podcast so that more people can benefit from it.
Now, as usual, we have a book special this month for our CCL podcast listeners, and this one relates to a conversation we had in an earlier episode of the podcast: way back in episode 5, we spoke with Mikey Lynch about the book project that he was working on. And that book is now finished, it’s been published and it’s called The Good Life in the Last Days with the subtitle “Making choices when the time is short”. And as Mikey said in the podcast in our conversation, what he was exploring is the tension we often feel between, on the one hand, dying to self and laying down our lives for others for the sake of Christ, and on the other hand, still living in a world that is a good world, that has lots of good gifts that God has given for us to enjoy. How do you hold that together in your head and in your life? And this book that Mikey has written is a really stimulating and useful guide to navigating that tension. It’s called The Good Life in the Last Days. You can find it at matthiasmedia.com.au/ccl.
I’m also very excited to tell you about our next CCL event with Os Guinness on May 30th here at Moore College. For those of you who don’t know, Os Guinness is a leading international apologist and Christian speaker. He’s been writing books for more than 30 years on a whole range of topics related to Christianity and its place in modern society. He’s a very sharp and insightful observer of our culture. And he’ll be speaking at the CCL event on freedom and his topic is “The greatest enemy of freedom is freedom: Christian freedom and the illusions of contemporary freedom”. I’m really looking forward to what Os has to say to us on this topic. I won’t say too much more now. Go to the CCL website—that’s ccl.moore.edu.au—where you can get more details about the event as well as tickets. And I would get early—in early and buy tickets for this one; I think it will sell out quite quickly. That’s May 30th, Os Guinness speaking at Moore College on Christian freedom.
Well, that’s all. It’s been great to have you with us again on the CCL podcast. Thanks for being with us! Thanks, too, to Karen Beilharz for her constant and ever-efficient help in putting all this together.
Thanks for listening and ’bye for now!