It’s sad that over the last century, so much division among Christians has come from different beliefs about the Holy Spirit. Perhaps what’s even more sad is that these differences are, at their core, about God himself. Who is the God we worship? What is the work that he does in our lives? How does he work, and to what end does he do this work? The tragedy is that the Holy Spirit is promised to us as the bond of peace among Christians (Eph 4:3). Indeed, it’s in spiritual unity that we confess one Lord, one faith and one baptism, as Paul says in Ephesians 4:5.
In this episode of the CCL podcast with Phillip Jensen, we look a little bit more closely at what the Scriptures say about the Holy Spirit. In particular, what does the gift of the Spirit mean for us in our Christian lives?
Links referred to:
- Two Ways Ministries
- The Coming of the Holy Spirit: Why Jesus sent his Spirit into the world(Phillip Jensen)
- Podcast episode 012: The Holy Spirit and the Christian life with Phillip Jensen
- Our Wednesday 7 June events with David VanDrunen:
- “The glory of true humility” (academic lecture) with David VanDrunen (Wed 7 June 5:00pm)
- “Virtue in an age of virtue signalling: Christian character in a characterless society” with David VanDrunen (Wed 7 June 7:30pm)
- Support the work of the Centre
- Contact the Centre about your ethical questions
Runtime: 31:21 min.
Please note: This transcript has been edited for readability.
Chase Kuhn: It’s sad that in the last century, so much division among Christians has come from different beliefs about the Holy Spirit. Perhaps what’s more sad is that these are differences that, at their core, are about God himself. Who is the God we worship? What is the work that he does in our lives? How does he work, and to what end does he do this work? The tragedy is that the Holy Spirit is promised to us as the bond of peace among Christians (Eph 4:3). Indeed, it’s in spiritual unity that we confess one Lord, one faith and one baptism, as Paul says in Ephesians 4:5.
Today on the podcast, we look a little bit more closely at what the Scriptures say about the Holy Spirit. In particular, what does the gift of the Spirit mean for us in our Christian lives?
CK: Hello, and welcome to the Centre for Christian Living podcast. My name is Chase Kuhn and I’m coming to you from Moore Theological College in Sydney, Australia. Today on the podcast, I’m very pleased to welcome Phillip Jensen, who works with Two Ways Ministries now. He’s had a long career of pastoral ministry, both around the University of New South Wales, as well as in the city of Sydney at St Andrew’s Cathedral. Most recently, he’s been helping to equip the next generation for thinking about how the gospel can keep going into the world. Phillip, it’s great to have you here.
Phillip Jensen: It’s great to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
CK: I rarely get to do this, but it’s lovely: I’ve known you for a long time now—I met you in 2008—and in many ways, you are the reason we first came to Australia. My wife and I came for six weeks to spend some time with you and learn from you, and here we are, 15 years later, still learning from you!
PJ: Oh, that we could persuade more people into the kingdom of God, rather than Australia! But good, we’re glad you’re here! [Laughter]
CK: See, if it was America, we might say it is the kingdom of God! [Laughter]
The background behind the book
CK: It’s great to be here, Phillip. Today, we’re here talking about your most recent book, The Coming of the Holy Spirit: Why Jesus sent his Spirit into the world. I’ve really appreciated reading this. It’s a serious piece of work. It’s a long book, but long, in part, because there are so many helpful appendices at the end, which is great—some real targeted sections on chapters. Let me just ask you first and foremost why did you write a book on the Holy Spirit?
PJ: Well, during the period of history in which God has called me to minister the gospel, there have been certain controversies—like feminism and the deculturalisation of Christianity in Australia. One of them, of course, has been the whole rise of Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement.
Now 70 years later, that movement has matured and changed, and therefore our ability to relate with each other and talk to each other has changed and transformed. So when it was first happening in the 60s and 70s, most charismatic Pentecostals were anti-evangelicals: they’d left evangelicalism to become that. Whereas today, most charismatics and Pentecostals have never really met an evangelical: they’re not part of that same family, though they believe the Bible. So I thought that it’s time for us to not to replay the same chess game we’ve been playing for 60 years, because that’s going to get the same result and because it doesn’t recognise the maturing of the charismatic movement either. It doesn’t relate to the people who are now part of that movement. They say they believe the Bible; evangelicals say they believe the Bible. Well then, let’s test that by sitting down and looking at what the Bible actually says, but not looking at it through the eyes of the controversy. Forget the controversy! What is it that the Bible, in its own terms, is saying about the Holy Spirit?
CK: Yep. That’s very helpful, and I think the tone of your book is just right on that point: it’s not trying to stir up any controversy; it’s not trying to rehash old arguments; it’s actually saying, “Let’s take a fresh look at the text.” As readers engage the text, the first thing they’ll notice is, I think, just how centred on the Scriptures it is. In fact, at points where controversy could be opened, you deliberately don’t go there. You even note that this is a point that will be contentious, but we’re not going to go there right now. I really admire that.
You’ve also given anecdotes of times when you’ve encountered people of different persuasions and sought to listen genuinely to one another. I think that’s really powerful to say we can sit together under the word of God and ask honest questions.
Dealing with related questions and issues
CK: I guess the reason why you’ve written the book—knowing you and knowing your ministry, there has been a lot of engagement around this space, because in your time here, you’re trying as best as possible to keep communicating the truths of Scriptures to your audience, and often these were the kinds of questions brought to you. As much as that shape has, perhaps, changed between the charismatic and evangelicals, the questions still remain, don’t they.
PJ: I used to have to deal with questions. That’s why there are appendices. A third of the book is appendices! [Laughter] Partly they’re there because there are subjects that are repeated, like being led by the Spirit or sealed by the Spirit. The book as a book would lose its momentum if I had to explain the same thing every time. So I put those in appendices.
But then there are other issues like, “Well, what is speaking in tongues?” Every time that topic comes up (and it comes up in about three passages), am I going to spend another essay explaining it again? No, let’s put it in an appendix.
CK: Yeah. I think even in your treatment of 1 Corinthians 12-14, it was really interesting what you did: I could imagine certain questions or issues coming out, and you even flag these at points, saying, “Oh, this is dealt with in an appendix later on. Right now, though, let’s stay focused on what the text is saying and doing.” I loved that clarity and that consistency—that we can read the passage; try to get clear on what’s actually being said; work out that the reason why we get confused is because of a translation issue or a question we bring to it; and therefore we don’t actually appreciate the argument of what Paul is saying here in the passage. It’s great!
A key verse in 1 Corinthians 12-14
PJ: In fact, because of that passage in 1 Corinthians 12-14, the book was held up for 12 months.
CK: Is that right?
PJ: Yeah. I found a verse there that the translations all fudge [Laughter], because the translators don’t really understand. They understand what the Greek is saying, but what the Greek is saying doesn’t fit in with what we think it should be saying. So they fudge.
CK: There you go.
PJ: When I looked at it, I thought, “Oh well, I’ll just say what it says.” But then I couldn’t work out what it meant either! [Laughter] I wasn’t going to publish a book that had a key verse missing. This is a key verse in the logic of chapter 14: it ends one section, starts another section and connects with “Therefore”. It’s not one you can really pass over.
So I struggled to work out what that verse meant, and I searched. It took me a long time to find anybody else who had had the same struggle. But then I found them: Ellis, for example, who always saw strange things and commented on them. He wrote several chapters on that verse. When I found those people, I started to realise, “Actually, this is a key verse for understanding the three chapters” and to fudge there is to make a big mistake in understanding those chapters in their terms. It doesn’t actually turn you into an evangelical or into a charismatic. It just turns you into someone who understands what Paul meant.
CK: That’s great. Personally, and this is a genuine comment, reading through your book, I feel like that is a consistent approach that you’ve taken throughout: “Let’s try to get as clear as we can on what the Bible is saying” and it’s not about persuading you towards one tribe or the other. It’s just about trying to understand the passages better.
Again, I think, for those listening who might engage this book (and I do commend it and I’ll commend it again later on), I want to say if you’re looking to go through the text of Scripture in a very accessible way, but in a way that’s going to continue to give you better understanding of what the passages are saying, this is a great resource.
The place of the Holy Spirit in the Christian life
CK: Phillip, I thought today, if it’s okay, that we would focus on your fourth part, which is on the Christian life, because our podcast is focused on Christian living and particular ethics. The Holy Spirit is crucial to our Christian living. Even before we signed on for the podcast, you and I were talking about the Christian life quite a bit. I really enjoyed that. What would you say is the place of the Holy Spirit in the Christian life?
PJ: Well, it brings the Christian life into being in that through the gospel, in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is the evangelist, who speaks through evangelists to bring us the gospel. The gospel is the power of God, because the Holy Spirit’s words are in the gospel. So when Paul says to the Thessalonians, “You heard the word of God from us when you heard the words of men. You didn’t take it as the words of men, but as the word of God, which is at work in you” (cf. 1 Thess 2:13). The Holy Spirit brings you to faith in the first place, because it’s the Holy Spirit’s word. But then the Holy Spirit works in you. It’s like Philippians 2:12-12: “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”, because God is at work in you to do this. It’s the Holy Spirit who actually brings us into Christ and transforms us into Christlikeness of character.
CK: I love that!
The flesh and the Spirit
CK: This is a really interesting point that we can open up for a minute. You do go here in the book: one of the tensions that I know so many Christians feel is the battle of, say, what Romans 8 talks about—the flesh and the Spirit: we have real, new life now—real power over sin now—and yet we still are at war with the flesh. The Spirit is leading us in the new life—that liberated life from sin—and yet we keep sinning. So people are always questioning.
In one sense, it’s an existential crisis: “Do I have the Spirit or don’t I? Does my sin mean that I’m not actually saved or I’m not progressing?” How do you help people who feel stuck there?
PJ: Yeah. If you’re not at war, like the war between the flesh and the Spirit within you, it means either you’re unconverted or dead. [Laughter]
CK: That’s very helpful! [Laughter]
PJ: They’re the two options. As long as you’re alive in Christ—alive in this world in Christ—you’re still in the flesh. Now, the trouble with the word “flesh” is it’s used in different ways: it’s used in the excessive amount that’s hanging around my bones, but it’s also used in terms of “the old nature”. It’s used in terms of this world, and it’s a sinful world. We have to be careful in our definitions about the flesh.
The works of the flesh in Galatians 5 deal with things like anger, fighting—which we would call “sins of the spirit”, but they’re actually “sins of the flesh”, because the flesh is not just the stuff on my body, from which my body is made; the flesh is this world—this sinful, fallen world. Well, I’m still in this sinful, fallen world, and so I am continuing in warfare, because the Spirit is unhappy with the ways in which I live in this world. He is provoking me and pushing me. Galatians 5:16-17 that talks about how the two are in conflict with each other. As long as I’m in conflict, that’s good. But if I’m unconverted, I’ll just live the life of the flesh without any conflict. If I’m dead, well, praise God: the warfare is over and I’ll be transformed into the glorious body of the Lord Jesus.
CK: That’s such a lovely and freeing way of thinking about the Christian life. Rather than getting discouraged that you’re still battling—
PJ: No, be encouraged! [Laughter]
CK: —the battle is to encourage you. The fact that you feel this tension, and even that you feel remorse that you’re, at points, still in the flesh and you’re still prone to sin, and you’ve given in to temptation, that is actually evidence that you are not content with the old life and desiring a new. Those are signs of life.
PJ: I went to the dentist the other day and he was worried about one of my teeth. He got some very cold stuff and put it on the tooth, and said, “Did you feel that?” I said, “Yes!” He said, “Oh, good. That means the tooth’s still alive.” [Laughter]
CK: By the way, I just had chills down to my toes. That’s the worst thing someone’s told me today, Phillip! [Laughter] I have nightmares about that kind of tooth pain!
PJ: Yeah, well it hurts! But the pain was very important, because it showed the tooth was still live.
CK: That’s very helpful. Very helpful! If we feel pain over our sin, or we feel that there’s a real battle being waged, that’s really a sign we’re still alive.
PJ: We’re still alive. We’re still fighting. We’re still in the game.
CK: That’s really helpful. [Laughter]
Grieving the Spirit
CK: You talk about grieving the Holy Spirit in the book. Can you help people open up that understanding of just what it means to grieve the Holy Spirit—especially in relation to what we’ve just been talking about?
PJ: Well, it’s a funny phrase. It’s in the Old Testament as well. The Holy Spirit is only called the Holy Spirit twice in the Old Testament. That never crossed my mind before until I actually investigated it. It’s in that passage about grieving—that is, it’s part of helping us understand that the Holy Spirit is the person—the third person—of God. He feels and is disappointed in our failures, especially the failures of our speech, because the Holy Spirit is particularly concerned about tongue.
The passages about grieving in the Spirit—I think there are only two in the New Testament (cf. Eph 4:30)—speak to us about the ways in which we use the wonderful gift that he gives us of our speech and lives in ways that are inconsistent with him, and sorrow him and sadden him.
CK: Yeah, very helpful and heavy. One of the things I like about this is you show the Spirit is not just a force, but is personal, and as God, is even speaking to us with this language of grief. In one sense, it’s actually to accommodate and show us that relational nature—the personhood of the Spirit. One of the things you mention in the book is that the divinity of the Spirit is not in question in the Old Testament, but it’s only those little windows where you start to see the personhood of the Spirit and that personal dynamic of the way that he relates.
I think it’s wonderful, too, to show that what God wants for us is what’s best. He wants life, not death. So if we keep on in the old, dead ways, we’re, in one sense, then, not enjoying what he’s purposed for us, which is good things.
PJ: Yes! He always wants the best for us. Yet when we hear what he wants us to do or not to do, because of our sinful nature, we think, “We know better than God. That would make me happier. That will make life better.” But no: my ways will never make life better. God’s ways may be painful, like the dentist [Laughter]. But the long-term benefits of the dentist is why I endure the pain.
CK: Yeah. They’re actually measures of care.
PJ: And real improvement—not only care, but real improvement. I think I take a Panadol and that will solve my tooth pain. It doesn’t solve my teeth! [Laughter] It actually just perpetuates the problem. Whereas, to go and get my teeth dealt with properly will actually give me better teeth in the long-run.
Sorry for continuing in those tooth illustrations!
CK: Yeah, I know. I’m still cringing over here.
PJ: It’s the first time I’ve been to the dentist in two years, thanks to COVID. [Laughter]
CK: They’re looking sparkly today. That’s good!
Well, that’s really helpful. In terms of grieving the Spirit, I can see how some people get really worked up about this: they’re really worried about letting God down. I guess another way of thinking about it, then, is positively—that what God is giving to us is so good that when we don’t make use of that good gift, we’re not enjoying what has been given.
PJ: That’s right.
CK: I buy my kid a new bike. He’s got this rusty old thing, and he says, “I’ll just ride the rusty old thing,” and you think, “That’s disappointing!” [Laughter] “Why wouldn’t you want the new thing I got you that’s much better?” Yeah, that’s helpful.
CK: As we take a break from our program, I’d like to tell you about some resources for your Christian life. First, if you’ve benefitted from the material on the podcast today, I recommend that you check out Phillip’s new book: The Coming of the Holy Spirit: Why Jesus sent his Spirit into the world, which was published just a few months ago by Matthias Media.
Finally, we have some very significant events coming up with the Centre for Christian Living. On Wednesday 7 June, we’ll host Professor David VanDrunen of Westminster Seminary California for two evening events. We’ll begin from 5-6pm with a public lecture on “The glory of true humility”. Then after we take a dinner break, we’ll come back for our CCL series event on virtue from 7:30-9:00pm on the topic of “Virtue in an age of virtue signalling”.
I really that hope you’ll prioritise joining us for this special evening, either in person or online. As a reminder, we host these events on Wednesday nights so that you can come along with your church Bible Study group. If you’re in Sydney, we’d love for the whole group to come. Or if you’re not able to make it, do join us on livestream.
Again, our events are now being run by donation only, so if you can give, wonderful, and if you can’t, we’d still love to have you. You can find out more information on our website: ccl.moore.edu.au.
Now let’s get back to our program.
Individual vs corporate
CK: As people continue to think about the Christian life, one of the other things that you have opened up is that it’s not just something personal, and this comes into grieving the Holy Spirit. It’s not just something individual. I want to talk about two things: 1) the propensity for us to just think about me and God, and where we can go astray in thinking about the Spirit that way, and 2) on the other end, how the Spirit helps us in our relationships with one another, so that it is something for me and God, in one sense—that God comes near and even dwells in us—but we can easily make it just about me and God, whereas actually, it enables something—the Holy Spirit is enabling something for us corporately.
PJ: I can’t have God as my Father except by the Spirit. I can’t have God as my Father without having you as my brother. [Laughter]
CK: I love that!
PJ: If you’re in the family of God, it’s the family. The family, it seems to me, is the primary imagery of church. It’s not business, it’s not structures, it’s not institutions; it’s family, because it’s the family of God that we’re in: God is our Father by the Spirit of his Son. So the Spirit of his Son gives me that sonship by which I call him, “Abba, Father!”, by which I also call you “brother”.
CK: Yeah. Isn’t that lovely! It really brings down, as Paul notes elsewhere in Ephesians 2:14, the dividing wall of hostility. Even that common inheritance—that commonwealth that we share—is not just … I mean, it is the kingdom, and that is also of a family nature—the inheritance is actually of common inheritors.
PJ: And it’s the one and the same Spirit. See that wonderful passage in 1 Corinthians 12—of which people like to quote about the Spirit giving the different gifts? We miss the theme of it: because we’re caught in that particular issue about gifts of the Spirit, we miss that in that paragraph, it keeps saying, “the one”, “the one”, “the one and the same Spirit”, “the one Spirit”. That is, it’s not different gifts from different spirits. It’s not like in Roman Catholicism, where there are different saints to pray to for different things: Saint Christopher is the patron saint of travellers; other saints are for different things. There’s one Spirit and only one Spirit, who gives diversity.
But we’ve taken for granted the emphasis on the oneness of the Spirit, because we forget that the Corinthians lived in a world of spirits and they were zealots for spirits. So we miss the oneness. That’s only one Spirit. That one Spirit then brings us into the one body. We’re all baptised in the one body by the one Spirit.
Therefore, what we must do, as it says in Ephesians, is to seek to maintain the unity of the Spirit (Eph 4:3-4). So dividing over the Spirit is really unspiritual [Laughter], because the Spirit is what unites us.
CK: Yeah, that’s right! Even our body life together, which you just mentioned—and I guess this taps into the individualism I’m concerned about—when we think about gifts for use in the body, and you navigate helpfully the spiritual gifts language that we often use versus the language of 1 Corinthians and what’s actually being said there—but as we think about gifts for the body, we often make gifts about me—about me being me—me entitled to use what I have for my own sake, in one sense—whereas actually, we are one body with one Spirit with one head, Jesus Christ, and we’re growing up into that head. This means the gift is not for me; it’s for others.
PJ: That’s right. Yeah. Paul uses that method of argument in lots of places, where he presents the problems and the issue, and then seems to change subject—“I’m talking about some other theological point”—and then he comes back and applies that to the issue. So 1 Corinthians 7, which is about sex inside marriage, adultery and things like that, suddenly has a little paragraph about contentment. Then from that paragraph, he goes back to talking about marriage and contentment, etcetera.
That happens in 1 Corinthians 12-14: he’s talking about the gifts, the body language, and the one Spirit and the many gifts, and then suddenly there’s this chapter on love. [Laughter] It’s just sitting there! People say, “Oh, that must be about getting married.” So at their wedding services, they read it. But it’s got nothing necessarily to do with that in Paul’s mind; he didn’t write it for wedding services. It’s not wrong to use it for that, but it’s a different meaning. Then Paul comes back to chapter 14 and analyses prophecy and tongues on the basis of love, because it’s not about the gifts of the Spirit; it’s about the Spirit who gives love to the brothers and sisters. So whatever gifts I have are to be used on the principle of love, which is therefore always other person-centred; it’s never self-centred.
CK: That’s very good. We were talking about classical music before this, and there’s a poll going on about whose favourite instrument is what. Imagine every instrument in an orchestra feeling like they have to solo at the same time. [Laughter] That’s just not the point of every instrument playing together.
PJ: No, it’s certainly not! That’s right.
CK: In fact, the whole is served when others are considered and there’s a balanced interest in other pieces accompanying others. So that accompaniment is actually something really beautiful that makes a lovely sound together, rather than just a whole bunch of noise.
PJ: A better sound than any one instrument could make!
CK: Correct! Yeah. It’s not noise and it’s not just this highlight, and sometimes there is a solo, but that’s usually in service of the other piece, rather than the whole.
The Spirit in us
CK: Well, thinking, then, about corporate life together, how does the Spirit help us not just personally—in other words, not just in my private experience—but how does the Spirit help us together? We’ve hinted at this in terms of body life, but are there ways, then, that the Spirit is actually moving among us together, not just me by myself?
PJ: Well, you take the work of the Spirit, which is contrasted to the works of the flesh in Galatians 5, and the works of the flesh are nearly all anti-social. They’re nearly all individualistic, you see: party spirit, fighting, anger—they’re things that are destructive of corporate life, like adultery, murder and stealing. You take those and you see they’re all against the other person. Whereas, the fruit of the Spirit is what the Spirit is at work in us producing. It’s not the “fruits”, of course, but the “fruit”—the crop. What the Spirit produces—love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control—all of those may be produced in me as a person, but all of them are beneficial for our corporate life together.
If you think back to those days when people flat together and thinking about “What do you want your flatmate to be like?”, you’d answer, “Full of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness—I could live with a person like that. That would be really good!” Well, why don’t you become like that yourself? [Laughter]
CK: Yeah, that’s right!
PJ: These are the people you can live with—people of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control. That’s what the Spirit is at work producing in individuals. But the things that he’s at work at in individuals are the creation of corporate life.
CK: Yeah, that’s right. That’s helpful. I mean, we are always social beings. There are times when I tell people, “The problem with the world is people.” [Laughter] My life would be a lot easier if there weren’t people in it. [Laughter] But that’s not actually true.
PJ: No. It’s completely false.
CK: And in fact, when I think I’ve got things together because I’m alone, the test case for that is when I’m interacting with somebody else. What does patience look like unless you have to be patient with someone? So each social dimension is sanctifying for us. It is a place where God is working in us, because we’re being tested through relationships: how do I demonstrate love? How do I live peaceably? How do I live joyfully?
PJ: Yes. Galatians 5 is a really important passage in that regard: “For freedom Christ has set us free” (Gal 5:1a). But then he goes on: “[D]o not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another” (Gal 5:13). That’s the background context of the contrast between the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit. The conclusion is that we must walk in step with the Spirit (Gal 5:25) so that the Spirit is within me, producing this crop that is totally unnatural for me.
But now that I’m regenerate, I must walk in step with the Spirit. It’s not that I must do this myself; the fruit of the Spirit is not what I do; the fruit of the Spirit is what the Spirit does in me. But I’m still responsible to walk in step with the Spirit. And so I must seek to use my freedom not for myself, but for others.
Active and passive Christianity
CK: Maybe as we close our conversation, we can wrap up on this tension—that active and passive role. We talked about this before a little bit. The Spirit works in us. That’s something we receive passively. But then we are called to keep step actively. How do you help Christians keep those things in proportion?
PJ: Uhhh … I don’t know. I can’t answer that. We’ve just got to keep teaching that that is the case. We need to be praying for the Spirit to continue to bless us with these things. We need to encourage each other to see that the good things that are happening in our lives are not to be boasted about, but we should thank God for them. But at the same time, we must avoid the “Let go and let God” kind of theology, which says that you just do nothing passively. We must continue to exhort one another as long as we see it is today (Heb 10:25). We need to keep teaching each other to walk in the Spirit.
CK: Yeah. That’s helpful. I’m reminded of 2 Peter 1:5, where everything you need for life and godliness has been given to you, therefore, make every effort.
PJ: Yes, yes! That’s a good one.
CK: So everything that you need has been given and therefore act in the power of everything given to you. That’s very helpful.
CK: Phillip, I can’t thank you enough for your time today and for this resource that I know has been years in the making—really, a lifetime of ministry in the making. Thank you very much for the work you’ve done and thank you for giving us the time.
PJ: It’s a great pleasure to be here with you!
CK: To benefit from more resources from the Centre for Christian Living, please visit ccl.moore.edu.au, where you’ll find a host of resources, including past podcast episodes, videos from our live events and articles published through the Centre. We’d love for you to subscribe to our podcast and for you to leave us a review so more people can discover our resources.
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As always, I would like to thank Moore College for its support of the Centre for Christian Living, and to thank to my assistant, Karen Beilharz, for her work in editing and transcribing the episodes. The music for our podcast was generously provided by James West.
Scripture quotations are from The ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), copyright © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved.