Matthew, Mark and Luke all describe Jesus ascending a mountain and then being transformed in front of three of his disciples (Matt 17:1-8; Mark 9:2-10; Luke 9:28-36). This is the event that Christians call the “transfiguration”. But why is it such an important event? What does it actually tell us about Jesus? Does it have anything to do with the Christian life?
In this episode, Peter Orr talks to Dr Patrick Schreiner of Midwestern Baptist Seminary in the United States. He’s just written a wonderful book on the transfiguration, and he shows us just how vital and important this event is for understanding Jesus and for living the Christian life.
Links referred to:
- The Transfiguration of Christ: An exegetical and theological reading (Patrick Schreiner)
- The Ascension of Christ: Recovering a Neglected Doctrine (Patrick Schreiner)
- Light on the Mountain: Greek Patristic and Byzantine Homilies on the Transfiguration of the Lord, Popular Patristics Series (trans. Brian E Daley, SJ)
- Our next event: Embrace AI and lose your soul? How to think about AI as a Christian with Akos Balogh (13 Mar)
- Support the work of the Centre
Runtime: 27:21 min.
Transcript
Please note: This transcript has been edited for readability.
Peter Orr: Matthew, Mark and Luke all describe Jesus ascending a mountain and then being transformed in front of three of his disciples (Matt 17:1-8; Mark 9:2-10; Luke 9:28-36). This is the event that Christians call the “transfiguration”. But why is it such an important event? What does it actually tell us about Jesus? Does it have anything to do with the Christian life?
In this episode, I’ll be talking to Dr Patrick Schreiner of Midwestern Baptist Seminary in the United States. He’s just written a wonderful book on the transfiguration. He’ll show us just how vital and important this event is for understanding Jesus and for living the Christian life.
Enjoy the episode!
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PO: Welcome to the Centre for Christian Living podcast. I’m Peter Orr. My guest today is Patrick Schreiner, and we’re going to be talking about the transfiguration of the Lord Jesus and particularly its relevance for the Christian life.
Patrick, welcome to the podcast. Can you tell a little bit about yourself: tell us what you’re doing, tell us about your family, and tell us how you became a Christian.
Patrick Schreiner: Thanks for having me, Peter! It’s great to talk to you. I live in Kansas City, Missouri, in the United States. I’ve been here for three years. Before that, I was in Portland, Oregon. I taught at Western Seminary for six years in Portland, Oregon. Now I’ve been teaching here at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary for three years. I teach New Testament and Biblical Theology.
I’m married to Hannah. We’ve been married for 15 years and we have four children—three girls and a boy: 12, 11, 9 and 6. We are busy: they’re all playing sports and having a great time. My wife’s a photographer, and I just love writing, research, and teaching. I’m an elder in my local church. We love sports. We love doing things like that.
I was saved at a young age: I grew up in a Christian home, and very early on, I recognised my sin. I recognised that Jesus is my saviour and that he had forgiven me of my sins, and so I called out to him in repentance and faith.
During high school, I started walking away from the Lord. But the Lord drew me back to himself in college. I went to college not really knowing where I’d go in terms of a career, but started to get really involved in Campus Crusade for Christ on a local state college campus, and then went on staff at a church and realised that I loved ministry. I went to seminary, and now here I am.
PO: Wonderful!
What happened at the transfiguration
PO: You’ve been writing some great books lately. The latest one that’s due to come out in 2024 is on the transfiguration. I imagine we all have a vague familiarity with the transfiguration. Can you give us a refresher of what happened? What happened to Jesus at the transfiguration?
PS: Yeah. The narrative of the transfiguration appears in Matthew, Mark and Luke, and then Peter mentions it in 2 Peter. It’s not narrated in John. We can talk about that later.
Essentially, Jesus brings three of his disciples up onto a mountain after Peter’s confession that Jesus is the Messiah. As he brings them up to the mountain, he’s transfigured before them, and that word just means his form is changed in some way. The way the text describes it is that his clothes became as white as light and his face shone. The disciples are watching this, and then suddenly Moses and Elijah appear next to Jesus.
Peter and the rest of the disciples seem a little confused. Actually, Mark says he is confused (Mark 9:6; cf. Luke 9:33) [Laughter], and he says, “Rabbi, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah” (Mark 9:5; cf. Matt 17:4; Luke 9:33). It seems that a voice from heaven then interrupts Peter and says, speaking out of a cloud, “This is my beloved Son; listen to him” (Mark 9:7; cf. Matt 17:5). Luke 9:35 says, “This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!”
The disciples fall down on their faces. They realise or they see who Jesus is, but Jesus comes to them. In Matthew, it says he touches them and he comforts them (Matt 17:7), and then they come down the mountain.
It’s called the transfiguration because two of the Gospels—Matthew and Mark—use that word “μετεμορφώθη/metamorphosis” from which we get the word “transfigured” or “transformed”. It refers to really a change in physical appearance—his bodily form.
Why the transfiguration has been overlooked
PO: It’s very important, particularly in Matthew, Mark and Luke, and we’ll talk about John, as you say. But in terms of the Christian imagination and even in Christian writing, it’s been overlooked—particularly in the Western church. You have a line, “It is a truth universally acknowledged that the Western church has overlooked the transfiguration”.1 [Laughter] Then you give an example of an author who has written a great book on Jesus that’s 741 pages, but this author only has one reference, I think, to the transfiguration.2 Then—and I thought this was really helpful—if you asked most of our listeners, “If Jesus had not died, what would be the impact?”, I think we’d all be able to answer that. But if you’d asked us, “If Jesus had not been transfigured, what would be missing?”, maybe I would even struggle to answer that.3 [Laughter] Why has it been overlooked? Related to that, is that what prompted you to write the book?
PS: Yeah. I wish I had a great story for why I wanted to write this book [Laughter]. I don’t have something that’s like, “Suddenly a light shone from heaven!” and I was, like, “You should write this book!” No.
One of the things that I’ve been doing in my own scholarship is writing on neglected events in Christ’s life. I did a book on the ascension. I thought the transfiguration would be another good one, because it does feel like—it’s such a beautiful text and it’s something I feel like I can spend a long time meditating on, but I hadn’t seen a lot of resources on it. So in my own journey, I wanted to write the book because I felt like there is so much to say about it that hadn’t been said before.
Again, the Eastern Orthodox church says a lot about it and reflects on it more. In the history of interpretation, you just don’t have a lot from modern scholars. So I was thinking I might do a book on Jesus’ descent next and have a trilogy, so to speak, of neglected events in Christ’s life.
The other reason you mentioned why it’s neglected (at least one of the reasons; I could say so many things) is it almost seems like—and I say this in the book—an actor has missed his cue [Laughter] and Jesus is the actor. In other words, you have this story of Jesus’ life, and then suddenly out of nowhere, he’s this bright, shining figure, and then he goes back to normal form. It almost arrests us—like, “Wait, how does this fit in?” The whole narrative is him doing miracles and healing people, and then he’s going towards the cross. But right in the middle here you get this kind of glorious picture of who he is. Yet it seems like the disciples aren’t hugely affected by it. On the mountain, they fall down on their faces, but after that, they don’t say much about it. So I think it’s hard for us to fit it in the narrative flow of the gospel.
I’d also say it might be neglected because there’s been a great recovery of the earthy, embodied nature of our faith. NT Wright has done a lot of work on that. We tend to think of heaven as this disembodied, floating-in-the-clouds thing. But there’s been this great recovery: no, it’s heaven on earth. Heaven is coming to earth. However, with that emphasis, then, we come to the transfiguration, he’s suddenly shining like an angel and clouds are around him. So in our movement towards the earthy, this heavenly scene strikes us as like “I’m not entirely sure why it’s good news that Jesus is shining like an angel and this cloud is covering him!”
The other thing I’d say (I could say so many things about why it’s neglected!) is that it’s a mysterious and ambiguous event. I think as Protestants (I’m a Protestant), we tend towards narratives that are clear and concrete. This one has symbols and images that you kind of have to stop, pause, and go back to the Old Testament and think through. Why does Jesus shine as light? Why does his face glow? Why is this bright cloud there? There’s all these symbols and images that we just don’t really know what to do with us. I think sometimes we pass by it because we like the words of Jesus, but these images confuse us.
I could give more reasons, but I think those are some of them.
PO: Yeah, no, that’s really helpful.
What the transfiguration tells us about Jesus
PO: What does it show us about Jesus? How does it help us to understand who he is? Obviously the Gospel writers think it’s important. What are they showing us about Jesus?
PS: Yeah. In my book, I give a twofold argument for what’s going on in this narrative. Some of it is helping us understand where it fits into the flow of the narrative. In each Gospel, it happens after Peter’s confession. When Peter confesses that Jesus is the Messiah, the transfiguration follows that.
Here’s why I think it’s important: I don’t think it’s just repeating what Peter confessed; I think it’s actually revealing more. When Peter confesses that Jesus is the Messiah, Jesus says, “Yes”: “For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Matt 16:17). In other words, “You didn’t come to this on your own.” But what he means, though, by the “Messiah” is that he is the new David—this one who’s come—this king who’s going to reign over Israel.
In the transfiguration, I tend to think that that confession is almost added to, or more is revealed to the disciples. Jesus is more than just the Messianic son; he’s the divine Son. In my book, I give an argument that this is both the future glory (now we’re getting very theological; I realise this! [Laughter])—this is the future glory of the Messianic son and it’s the pre-existent glory of the divine Son. What Christians have always confessed is Jesus is both God and man. It’s showing something about who he is as man, because it’s his body that’s transfigured, and the future glory that will come, and it’s showing the glory that he always had.
I think it’s John 17:5 where Jesus says, “And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed” (John 17:5) or “before you created all things”—something to that effect. I think that’s a great summary of what’s going on: Jesus is revealing the glory that he always had, which is now being given to him as he accomplishes the Messianic anointed task for and on behalf of Israel.
In the context, this is so important (and this is maybe where it gets a little more practical; I know we’re going to get here). In context, Peter has confessed that Jesus is the Messiah, but Jesus has rebuked him and said, “You don’t understand. I’m going to have to go die” (cf. Matt 16:21; Mark 8:31; Luke 9:22). This is this bright spot in the midst of these passion/death predictions: yes, the cross is coming, but on the other side of that is glory. I think he’s giving them hope by revealing who he truly is and saying, “On the other side of this cross is all brightness, all glory and all light. Yes, I’m going to the cross and you can’t understand that. But remember: this is what the future is to come—both for me and those who are in me.”
PO: That’s very helpful: it’s revealing his glory as the pre-incarnate Son, but the glory that will come.
The kingdom and Jesus’ transfiguration
PO: Each of the transfiguration accounts, if I’m not mistaken, open with the word that Jesus says: “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power” (Mark 9:1; cf. Matt 16:28; Luke 9:27). How does that play into what’s going on with the transfiguration?
PS: Yeah. The first words as you break into the narrative—it depends how you divide the text—but after six days or after eight days, Jesus took them up. That’s right after he has that statement—that are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
I think what most people have argued, and I think this is true, is that this is a picture of the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. This is like a proleptic—a pre-image—
PO: A preview.
PS: —a preview, a trailer of Jesus coming into his kingdom. So when he says, “Some of you won’t taste death, we get confused and we’re like, “Wait a second: I know all these guys died. They didn’t see the Son of Man come in his kingdom.” But in every single Gospel, the next narrative is the transfiguration. This is a picture of the Son of Man coming in his kingdom, and if you compare this to all of the return of Christ—all of the narratives that describe the return of Christ—1 and 2 Thessalonians, Revelation 1, where Jesus Christ is described—he’s always described as this glowing white figure on this horse who’s going to come down in blazing fire, and rescue his people and judge his enemies. So this is exactly the picture of the Son of Man coming in his future glory. That’s why it’s so important that Jesus says, “That future second advent won’t happen until after I go through the cross. The suffering must precede the glorious return, and here’s a picture of the glorious return.”
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PO: As we take a break from our podcast, I want to tell you about our next event coming up on 13 March 2024 at Moore College. Akos Balogh will be speaking with us about artificial intelligence. AI is obviously being widely embraced across our society. You’ve probably heard of Chat GPT and other AI tools. There’s a lot of concern about how it’s impacting education and other fields. Is it going to get out of control? Is it going to ultimately harm humanity? Should we be alarmed about it?
Akos will help us think as Christians about AI. What does the Bible have to say about how we should think about and use this important technology? How should it, or how might it, affect our faith? We hope that you will join us on 13 March and hear from Akos Balogh, writer and researcher, as he speaks about technology, humanity and theology at this event. Hope to see you there!
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Regular listeners to the podcast will notice that I’m still presenting episodes, rather than Chase Kuhn. That’s because Chase has just started a new role as rector of St Matthias Church in Sydney’s eastern suburbs.
I’m hoping that Chase will record an episode with us in the near-future, but in the meantime, we wish him well as he starts his new role. I know he will be missed at Moore College more generally, but especially for the wonderful work he has done over the last few years for the Centre for Christian Living
And now let’s get back to our program.
The transfiguration and John’s Gospel
PO: It’s a wonderfully rich, theological picture. So why does John leave it out?
PS: [Laughter] And John’s there! He’s on the mountain with them! I know you said that on purpose [Laughter], but I don’t think John leaves it out. I just don’t think he narrates it. I actually think that if you read through John with the transfiguration in mind, it’s all over John. Think about John 1: he revealed his glory (v. 14); his glory dwelled among us (v. 14); his light shone in the darkness (v. 5). You really go through all the light imagery in John’s Gospel.
John doesn’t narrate the same events as the Synoptic Gospels. I use a word in class: he “reframes” them—he gives them different images in his Gospel. I would argue that John’s Gospel is a perpetual transfiguration [Laughter]—a perpetual theophany. He’s really taken the theology of the transfiguration and woven it through his whole Gospel. So yes, no narrative, but it’s like you’ve put a spotlight on that event. I encourage people who are listening to read John’s Gospel with the transfiguration in mind and you will see it all over the place.
PO: Excellent.
Practical implications of the transfiguration
PO: What about in terms of practical implications? How does it help us to live the Christian life? Does it have something to say? I think this is a great quote from your book: you write that some people would say, “The transfiguration is a curiosity in want of practical significance”. 4
PS: Yeah. That phrase is just saying we come to the transfiguration and we wonder, “What does this have to do with us?” The way I wrote this book, I did a lot on spiritual formation in my own mind. I put some of that in the book. But if you think of the transfiguration as ascending the mountain, I think that’s a helpful way of thinking of our own spiritual progress and the grace of God. You even think of Psalm 24, which says,
Who may ascend the mountain of the Lord?
Who may stand in his holy place? (v. 3 NIV)
In 2 Peter, this is called the “holy mountain” (2 Pet 1:18). The next thing it says is,
The one who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not trust in an idol
or swear by a false god.
(Ps 24:4 NIV)
When they read the narrative of the transfiguration, all the church fathers rightly saw this as a picture of our journey towards God. What the disciples are seeing is really God face-to-face in the person of Jesus Christ. I think Paul picks up on that in 2 Corinthians 3:18—that we’re being transformed—actually, transfigured; it’s the same word—by beholding the face of the Lord Jesus Christ “from glory to glory”, as it says in the Greek. So this narrative is really a picture of our ascent to God.
What I love what the church fathers did is they say that in your ascent up the mountain, you have to do certain things: you need to purge yourself of sin, you need to look to Christ, and then as you look to him, you will be transformed. Matthew says we’ll shine like the stars of heaven (Matt 13:43).
So Jesus transfiguration is not just about Jesus; it’s about our future glory as well. Think of texts like Romans 8 and 2 Corinthians 4, where Paul writes things like, “For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us” (Rom 8:18). I think he’s not just meaning the glory that’s going to be revealed to us outside, but the glory that we are going to partake of and participate in. Paul also says, “For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison” (2 Cor 4:17). As we are brought into union with him, Jesus actually shares his glory with us, and we shine like we’re supposed to all along.
The church fathers in Jewish tradition spoke of Adam and Eve in the garden, shining with these robes of glory. I think that if we’re going to the recovery of that image, as we sin and turn our backs on God, we go down the mountain towards death. Up the mountain is life—eternal life—and light and glory, and down the mountain is death and darkness.
I found this event just hugely encouraging for my own Christian walk to continue to seek after the Lord’s face. Again, David in the Psalms says,
One thing have I asked of the Lord,
that will I seek after:
that I may dwell in the house of the Lord
all the days of my life,
to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord
and to inquire in his temple.
(Ps 27:4)
That’s the one thing that he desires. Personally, I love this narrative, because Moses appears, and he’s the one who asked to see God’s face (Exod 33:18)! [Laughter] He said, “Can I meet with you?” and God’s like, “Not yet. You’ll see that on another mountain in the future when Jesus Christ is revealed.” I think Elijah asked a similar thing on the same mountain (1 Kgs 19:9-12). So this is a picture of what is to come both for Jesus Christ himself in his messianic past and for us.
PO: I think you’ve done us a real service in showing us that this event, which is so easy to overlook, is actually key to understanding who Jesus, but also key to understanding what he is going to do for us. As you say, you illustrate how it helps us to read John’s Gospel; Paul’s letters and the rest of the New Testament also, as you say, might not narrate the event, but they write with an awareness of the transfiguration. So rather than being an obscure thing that we might skip over, it’s actually key and very important.
The early church fathers and the transfiguration
PO: You’ve mentioned some of the early church fathers: that might be an area that’s quite foreign for us. But you’ve found reading them was helpful in thinking through this topic, and I know you found them helpful in other areas as well. Do you want to say something about that?
PS: Yeah. Brian Daley has a great edited volume in the Popular Patristics series. It’s a short volume called Light on the Mountain where he collects early homilies—sermons—on the transfiguration from Greek and Byzantine thinkers. He’s got something like 30 sermons in there. They’re short sermons though. What I found is that I read that book and then I read a bunch of modern commentators—and God bless modern commentators; I am one—but I thought the patristic comments were so much richer and so much deeper, because I think they had an awareness of the symbolism of this text and how it connects to the rest of the Scriptures, and theologically, how it’s relevant. They were pulling in the whole Bible into this one event. I loved it!
What I found is after I studied the event and I wrote on it, I would read the Scriptures and see the transfiguration in every text. [Laughter] Sometimes you feel like you’re forcing it, but I’d see light and glory imagery. It’s just all over the New Testament: Ephesians 5:8: “Walk as children of light”.
“Awake, O sleeper,
and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”
(Eph 5:14)
I’m like, “Ah! This is all transfiguration language!” I hadn’t made that connection before in my own mind. So I even say in my book, read Daley’s book first, not mine [Laughter]. The chapters read like sermons and I find them so enriching.
I think in the modern times, we are sometimes scared to jump to other parts of the Bible, whereas the early church fathers are not scared at all; they’re very quickly jumping to Moses and Elijah narratives, Genesis narratives, Revelation narratives, and then tying it all together with this high and exalted view of Christ. If people don’t know, many modern commentators say this says nothing about Jesus’ divine status, because this is the Synoptic Gospels and this is just his future glory. Man, the patristic authors are just—they say the opposite: it’s all about Jesus’ divinity.
I wanted to bring the two together and say, “I think it’s both about his future glory and his pre-existent glory”. That’s what’s so beautiful about this event: it is where the two natures of Christ come together uniquely, and we see something unique about those two natures coming together. There’s times in the Gospel narratives, I think, when we need to think—like when Jesus says, “I don’t know this” [Laughter]—that he’s speaking in his human nature, and there are times when he’s acting more out of his divine nature: we call that “partitive exegesis”. But in the transfiguration, there seems to be this union of what theologians call “ad intra, ad extra”—what is true about Christ is actually coming together. It’s so important for the narrative.
Maybe I’m just talking now [Laughter], but one of the things that’s confused me is why didn’t the disciples—Peter, James and John—go back to this narrative and think about this while Jesus was on the cross? Why didn’t they think, “Well, remember, we saw him transfigured!” I think they were blinded to the reality of what they saw. Then, after the cross—after the resurrection—they realised, “Oh, that’s what that event meant”.
PO: Yep.
The ascension
PO: Listen, Patrick, it’s a wonderful book. While we have you, I would love to ask you quickly about the other book that you mentioned that you wrote on the ascension, which is also a great book about a neglected event. Can you give us a snapshot of why, as Christians, should the ascension matter to us, in terms of understanding Jesus and in terms of living the Christian life?
PS: Yeah. The ascension is one of those Christian events that, again, when we talk about Christianity, we typically speak about Jesus’ life, his death and hopefully his resurrection, but especially with the ascension, often we’re, like, “I’m not entirely sure why Jesus had to leave.”
But if you understand what’s happening in the ascension, you recognise Christianity, in one sense, wouldn’t exist without the ascension, because, when Jesus is raised from the dead, that means he will live forever. But he has to be crowned as the King over heaven and earth. So for him to ascend to the throne of the heavens is for him to be enthroned as the King over all.
So you think, even though Matthew 28—the Great Commission—doesn’t speak about the ascension, I think it assumes it when Jesus says, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations” (Matt 28:18-19). In one sense, there’s no mission without the ascension. In one sense, Jesus is not King over the universe without the ascension.
I always give a silly example that makes it click for people: at the end of The Lion King, Simba defeats Scar, but then he must ascend Pride Rock, and then, all the other lions bow down to him and all the animals bow down to him. There’s this ascension narrative where he has to go up Pride Rock to become the king over all.
Now, I know you’re thinking, “Wait! Isn’t Jesus already the King?” Well, this is like coronation day, where it is formalising what is already true. What’s so amazing about the ascension is he’s being crowned King in the heavens, which is the truest throne, not a throne on the earth. He doesn’t have to challenge Caesar’s throne. He doesn’t have to challenge human rulers. He already is the King of Kings.
I love the ascension. Again, it’s one of those events that, once you see it and you see its importance, you start to see it everywhere in all of the Scriptures.
PO: Yeah.
Conclusion
PO: Patrick, thank you so much. You’ve written two very helpful books on exposing us to neglected aspects of the New Testament, but also neglected aspects of our understanding of the Lord Jesus. I think you’ve done us a great service in helping us to see more of the riches, glory and beauty of our saviour.
So thanks for writing the books and thanks for your time on the podcast today. It’s been really great to chat with you.
PS: Thanks, Peter! Great to talk to you too.
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PO: To benefit from more resources from the Centre for Christian Living, please visit ccl.moore.edu.au, where you’ll find a host of resources, including past podcast episodes, videos from our live events and articles published through the Centre. We’d love for you to subscribe to our podcast and for you to leave us a review so more people can discover our resources.
On our website, we also have an opportunity for you to make a tax deductible donation to support the ongoing work of the Centre.
We always benefit from receiving questions and feedback from our listeners, so if you’d like to get in touch, you can email us at ccl@moore.edu.au.
As always, I would like to thank Moore College for its support of the Centre for Christian Living, and to thank to my assistant, Karen Beilharz, for her work in editing and transcribing the episodes. The music for our podcast was generously provided by James West.
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Endnotes
1 Patrick Schreiner, The Transfiguration of Christ: An Exegetical and Theological Reading (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2024), 1.
2 Ibid, 1-2.
3 Ibid, 2.
4 Ibid, 1.
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Unless otherwise indicated, Scripture quotations are from The ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), copyright © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
Where noted, Bible quotations are also from THE HOLY BIBLE: NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION®. NIV®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by International Bible Society, www.ibs.org. All rights reserved worldwide.
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