The last book in the Bible, the Book of Revelation, is a book that many of us are intrigued by. We read its symbolism and the different imagery, and sometimes we don’t know what to do with it.
In this episode of the CCL podcast, Peter Orr speaks with Tom Schreiner, who has recently released a couple of books on the Book of Revelation. Tom helps us think about how we should read the book and talks about its relevance for the Christian life.
Links referred to:
- Books by Tom Schreiner
- 2024 Annual Moore College lectures
- Priscilla & Aquila Centre seminar: A conversation about complementarian (9 August)
- Our next event: Casual sex or sacred sexuality? Our bodies and relationships under God with Philip Kern (22 May)
- Support the work of the Centre
Runtime: 27:53 min.
Transcript
Please note: This transcript has been edited for readability.
Introduction
Peter Orr: The last book in the Bible, the Book of Revelation, is a book that I imagine many of us are intrigued by. We read its symbolism and the different imagery, and sometimes we don’t know what to do with it.
In this episode of the CCL podcast, I’m going to be speaking with Tom Schreiner, who has recently released a couple of books on the Book of Revelation. He’s going to be helping us to think about how we should read the book, but also its relevance for the Christian life.
I hope you enjoy the episode.
[Music]
PO: Welcome to the Centre for Christian Living podcast. On today’s episode, we’re very privileged to be joined by Tom Schreiner. Tom is the James Buchanan Harrison Professor of New Testament Interpretation at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.
Tom, thank you very much for being on the podcast.
About Tom
PO: Before we dive into our topic, which is on the Book of Revelation, I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your journey—how you became a Christian and how you ended up lecturing at Southern Baptist Theological Seminar.
Tom Schreiner: Yeah. I was raised in a Catholic family. I’m from the West Coast—the state of Oregon. I was converted through the person who’s now my wife—when I was 17 years old. I’d never really heard the gospel until I met her.
I immediately felt a call to ministry. I thought I would be a full-time pastor. I have pastored, but I thought I would do that full-time. But as I studied, I realised that God had given me inclinations to do further study and work. So now I’m in my 41 st year of teaching!
Why the Book of Revelation is both off-putting and attractive to readers
PO: We’re thinking about the Book of Revelation. You’ve actually written three books on Revelation: two commentaries and a book on the themes of Revelation in Crossway’s New Testament Theology series. In that volume, you make the observation that the Book of Revelation both attracts and repels readers. Why do you think that is?
TS: Yeah. I think it’s—this is perhaps a bad illustration or analogy, but it reminds me a little bit of reading the short stories of Edgar Allen Poe: they’re fascinating, but they’re full of images—sometimes shocking images—and symbolism that can be off-putting. But I still remember the first time I read Revelation: at the same time, there’s something transcendent about the book that draws us in. You sense an excitement and the great cosmic conflict going on, which I think also attracts readers. But it’s hard for readers, because we wonder, “What in the world is he saying?” [Laughter]
Necessary familiarity with the Old Testament
PO: People have often observed that the Old Testament is one of the key assumptions that the author 1 makes. Do you think it’s fair to say that one of the reasons we might find it hard to read Revelation is we don’t pick up on the Old Testament references that John is making in the book?
TS: Yeah, I think that’s absolutely true. I was actually texting with an Old Testament scholar about my book, and I said, “One of the primary reasons we struggle with Revelation is we don’t know the Old Testament.” As you know, Peter, virtually every verse has an allusion to the Old Testament, but generally speaking, we’re quite ignorant of the Old Testament. There’s tendency—at least in some modern circles—to read the Book of Revelation via the newspaper or, I should say now, the internet; people don’t read newspapers anymore. [Laughter] At least, reading it in terms of contemporary events. Instead, our hermeneutical foundation should really be the Old Testament Scriptures.
PO: One writer on Revelation has said that they think that John uses the Old Testament compositionally, rather than expositionally. I know that’s getting a little bit technical. It’s almost as if the language of the Old Testament is his vocabulary as he writes. Do you think that’s a fair way of putting it?
TS: Yeah. I hadn’t heard that quotation before—or rather, I’d missed it. I thought it was quite insightful. I mean, there is exposition of the Old Testament, but not per se. I mean, often John takes the Old Testament language and tweaks it in his own direction. I think it’s almost as if he’s leading the Old Testament as he’s writing. That’s a nice way of putting it—that it’s compositionally. We don’t have just the straightforward exegesis of these Old Testament texts, but they’re bursting out all over as he gives us his message.
PO: We’ll think about the message of Revelation in a few moments.
Type of literature
PO: What type of literature would you say is the Book of Revelation?
TS: Yes, well, most scholars would agree that in Revelation, we have prophecy: John designates it as prophecy several times. Also, we have an epistolary genre in chapters 2 and 3. But what’s most notable is that it’s apocalyptic literature.
We find apocalyptic literature in the Old Testament. Just read Zechariah 9-14 and you might be as puzzled as you are when you read the Book of Revelation. [Laughter] We also see it in some Second Temple literature as well, like 1 Enoch, 2 Baruch and other books.
I suppose the simplest way to put is that apocalyptic literature is characterised by symbolism, and that can be quite off-putting to readers. What do these symbols mean? How do we decipher them? How do we interpret them? How literally should we understand them? But at least if we understand the book as apocalyptic, we are spared the danger of trying to read it like an epistle or a narrative or poetry. It is a different genre, and that can be challenging to us as contemporary readers.
Interpreting Revelation’s symbolism
PO: Any tips for how we interpret the symbolism? When we sit down to read the Book of Revelation and we encounter this very rich symbolism that John uses, where can we go for help, or how do we read responsibly?
TS: Yeah. I could several things. One thing I’d say is that there’s the words of the text, then there’s the symbol, and then there’s a referent. Sometimes it’s easy. Here’s an easy symbol: the opponent in Revelation 13 is called a “beast” linguistically. I don’t know anyone who takes that literally: no one thinks that the opponent is literally a beast or some kind of animal. So then we have to discover what the referent is. As is so often the case, which we referred to earlier, the Old Testament is absolutely crucial: if we wanted to discern who this beast is, you’ve got to read Daniel 7, where these great world empires are also described in terms of various animals. So one of the keys to the symbolism is knowing the Old Testament.
But it’s not always easy. I really struggle. Chapters 8-9—the trumpet judgements—are especially difficult. Richard Bauckham points this out in his work: many apocalyptic writers pause to explain the significance of the symbolism. John does that at times. But in chapters 8-9, there’s nothing. I was very curious as I was embarking on this project in terms of the history of interpretation—what people would say on how to interpret those symbols—and interpreters are all over the place precisely because John doesn’t tell us what the symbols mean. Is he talking about the natural world? Some people even see the natural phenomenon described there in terms of false teaching. The less John tells us, the more difficult it can become.
On the other hand, when we think of the locust judgement—that’s another example in Revelation 9:3-11—clearly they’re not literal locusts. John gives us some hints: for example, he tells us that these locusts don’t eat anything green (v. 4) and they have tails that sting human beings (v. 10). There’s no such locust like that in the natural world! I think John is screaming to us, “It’s symbolic!” But once again, we go back to the Book of Joel (1:1-12).
Some passages are hard—like the two witnesses (Rev 11:3-13). That is a very difficult passage because are they two literal people? Some people have argued that. Or do they represent the church? It’s harder to tell. The beast is easy in a way; we know that’s a symbol. But the two witnesses could easily be just two human beings, and many interpreters have argued that. I actually argue that it refers to the church, but there are many interpreters who have disagreed with that over the course of history.
Different views on the millennium
PO: There are lots of aspects, as you say, that have been discussed in church history. Perhaps the one that has had the most significant discussion, perhaps—particularly in the last 400 years or so—would be the millennium (Rev 20). What are your thoughts on what the millennium refers to? [Laughter]
TS: That’s a very difficult issue. I’m a very unstable person: I have actually held to a historic premillennial view, an amillennial view, and right now in my commentary, I’m proposing, along with a few others, a view called “new creation millennialism”. I’m attracted to this view because it’s sort of a via media between historic premillennial and amillennialism. That doesn’t mean it’s right; every view has problems.
PO: So “premillennialism” is a thousand years before Jesus comes back—a sort of interim period. Do you want to just briefly flesh out the different positions for the listeners?
TS: Yes, let me explain them a little bit.
Amillennialism
Amillennialism believes that the millennium started at Jesus’ death, resurrection and ascension. We’re in the millennium now. Satan was bound at the cross. The majority view these days is that the first resurrection in Revelation 20 refers to the intermediate state in heaven after death. Greg K Beale and others argue this. That has a long legacy in the history of the church, going back to Ticonius, Augustine and many others.
Historic premillennialism
The historic premillennial view is well-attested in early church history, with Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus. The historic premillennial view is that Christ comes to earth at the Second Coming, and then there’s a thousand years—or a significant period of time; that number is symbolic—in which Christ reigns on earth, and then at the end, Satan is released and there’s this great rebellion.
One of the features of the historic premillennial view is that there are both glorified and unglorified saints on earth. The Apostle Paul is there, presumably, and people like us right now, with unglorified bodies. That’s a very interesting feature.
Dispensational premillennialism
There’s dispensational premillennialism. I don’t know if you want to talk about that. That’s a particular kind of premillennialism that’s very popular still in the United States, where you have a seven-year tribulation and there’s the Rapture before this tribulation, and the millennium focuses very much on Israel. That is not the typical historic premillennial view, though. You don’t see that in the early Fathers. I don’t see any evidence in Revelation that the author is particularly concerned with the ethnic Israel side. I don’t think that view is very plausible.
Post-millennialism
The post-millennial view is very close to the amillennial view, but when the millennium starts differs among post-millennial interpreters. For some, it starts at the resurrection. The number a thousand is taken as symbolic, and the world is progressively transformed by the power of the gospel. That view was very popular among the Puritans, and even now in the United States, it’s making a comeback in some circles today—like with Doug Wilson, the Theonomy movement. Exegetically, I’ve never been attracted to this view. But all these things are very complicated.
New creation millennialism
The new creation millennial view, which I’m espousing now, is similar to the historic premillennial view in that it argues the binding of Satan during the millennium is total, and it argues that the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is physical, which the amillennialists, remember, say that resurrection is spiritual, in the intermediate state. But it is similar to the amillennial view in that it argues that all these Old Testament passages, like Isaiah 60, Isaiah 2 and Isaiah 65:17-25 refer to the new creation, not to the millennial period exclusively. Well, in my view, the millennium is the inauguration of the new creation. Therefore, it avoids a problem with the historic premillennial view in that there are no unglorified saints on earth. It’s sort of a combination of the two views.
I think this one is satisfying to me. I think it’s a little more natural reading of Revelation 20. The amillennial view fits my theology and my reading of how John appropriates these Old Testament texts—like Ezekiel 40-48. At least dispensationalists have said that’s the building of the temple. Well, in that passage, they’ll say there might be a literal temple rebuilt in the millennium. But what’s interesting is that John appropriates that passage in Revelation 21-22—not in the millennial text, but in the new creation, which I think points to the truth that that temple is not a literal temple at all, but God’s presence among his people. As Greg Beale would say, the whole world becomes his temple.
Problems
I hope I’m not confusing everyone by going on about this! But let me say every view has problems. In the new creation view, you have Satan, after a thousand years, leading a rebellion. So some people would say, “Well, what do you mean we live in a new creation and then evil suddenly pops out again? Also, in a new creation view, who joins Satan?” The dead—the wicked dead—are resurrected and join Satan in that rebellion. Eckhard Schnabel has argued for this. John Gill, the historic Baptist writer, may have held to something like this. When I’ve read him a little bit, it’s hard to be sure.
My answer to the objection “Why would such an attack even take place?” is that it reveals the utter insanity of evil, for one thing. There’s no hope of succeeding; we’re in the new creation. Of course, they don’t succeed and the millennium is the first age of the new creation. After that, there’s no further threat. Of course, the threat has no impact on the saints. But I acknowledge yes, maybe that’s not the easiest explanation, and I’m not dogmatic about the millennium. So I’m not sure. We’re all find out. [Laughter]
I always say to my friends over here, “It can’t be that important, because it ends.” [Laughter] It’s not forever. American evangelicals have tended to over-emphasise this. Sometimes I feel like we’re more excited for the millennium than the new creation.
PO: Yeah, and that’s very helpful that some of the difficulties we might have with reading the text keep us humble, in a sense, as we keep working on the text. We’re dependent on the Lord and we’re also dependent on each other for insights. But as you say, the main message—the hope of the new creation, which we’ll talk about in a second—is secure and front and centre for us.
[Music]
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Annual Moore College Lectures
PO: If you’ve enjoyed this episode with Tom Schreiner, you might like to know that in August, Tom is coming to Sydney to deliver the Annual Moore College Lectures. This is a lecture series that we have each year, where we get a faculty member or, as in this case, a visiting scholar, to talk on an aspect of their research.
Tom is coming to speak to us about the Book of Galatians. Tom’s been writing on Galatians. He’s previously published a commentary on Galatians. The lectures will happen at Moore College in the mornings of the week of 5-9 August. You can check out the Moore College website to find out more information.
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Priscilla & Aquila evening seminar: A conversation about complementarianism
Join us for a Friday evening conversation on Friday 9 August with New Testament theologian Tom Schreiner from the USA and Moore College faculty members Jane Tooher and Dan Wu. The format for the evening will be that there won’t be a talk. Instead, the entire time will be given to the panel, answering any questions that you have on complementarianism. Please bring your questions about marriage, about the ministries of men and women, and about gender complementarity. Come with friends, your Bible Study group or simply yourself. This will be an excellent way to finish the week.
[Music]
CCL May event: Casual sex or sacred sexuality? Our bodies and relationships under God
The sexualisation of society is not new. But the untethering of sex from all relational foundations has posed new problems. No longer is sex between a man and a woman, or even between a boyfriend and girlfriend, and nor is it even with another person you’ve met through an app; sex can now be with whomever you want, in whatever way you want—even with non-human devices.
Christians may not engage in these practices, but they are still immersed in the same cultural space. Our ideas of sex and sexuality can easily be shaped and changed by the world around us. How do we engage these topics in this new cultural space? How do we cling to what God in his word says is good for sex and sexuality? How do we respond to those who say that it is time to let go of our beliefs in the name of progress? Join us as Philip Kern, Head of New Testament at Moore College, brings us back to what the Bible says about relationships, our bodies and sexuality.
Philip has been working on a book on what the New Testament says about sex and sexuality, so it would be great to hear his insights on this very important topic.
And now let’s get back to our program.
Hearing and obeying
PO: I’m interested that your theology of Revelation that you released a couple of years ago was entitled The Joy of Hearing. When we think of Revelation, maybe that’s not the first thing that we might think of the theme of Revelation. Why did you entitle your book The Joy of Hearing?
TS: Yeah. John begins the book with the admonition to hear what is said (Rev 1:3). That hearing is tied—both at the beginning and at the end of the book, and really throughout the book—to obedience. What does it mean to hear?
In the Hebrew Scriptures and in the New Testament as well, hearing isn’t just hearing; true hearing is a hearing that leads to obedience. I called my book “The Joy of Hearing” because hearing God’s word and obeying it does bring us joy and happiness. I think it connects with the major theme of Revelation, which is there’s a great cosmic conflict going on, and it’s going on right now for all of us—a conflict between good and evil, God and Satan, the beast and Jesus Christ, and the false prophet, Babylon, and so forth and so on. There’s a great conflict, and John is saying, “Hear a transcendent message from above. Receive the metanarrative of what’s going on right now and find joy in that. Persevere in the faith. Hang on.” Since the saints are suffering in Revelation, it makes a difference to persevere. But those who don’t persevere will experience judgement. So I just wrote a little book—a more popular level book—on the final judgement, which came out of my study of Revelation.
The importance of Revelation to the Christian life
PO: We talked a lot about some of the details and symbolism, but why do you think, overall, Revelation is an important book for Christians today? Obviously some people want to read it in light of interpreting contemporary events. Maybe that’s not a helpful way. How do you see it as being a helpful book for Christians today?
TS: Yes. First of all, I’d say Revelation shares what the rest of the New Testament has: a focus on the cross. We could even say it’s very Trinitarian: the Father is the creator, the Son is the redeemer and the Spirit, especially in Revelation, is the revealer—the one who discloses the truth to us.
Some people when they consider Revelation, it doesn’t come to their mind; it’s in accord with the rest of the New Testament and the work of the Father, the Son and the Spirit. The great work of the Father and the Son and the Spirit is the redemption of believers from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. God is accomplishing his universal purpose. He’s fulfilling his promise to Abraham to bless all nations (Gen 12:3). And yet, there is a fierce and implacable opposition to this great redemption. That opposition means that believers are suffering.
Then look at the letters: what are the two things that are happening in the seven letters? There’s conflict and there’s compromise. Not all the churches are compromising: Smyrna and Philadelphia don’t get a criticism. But there’s conflict with the world and compromise with the world.
I think that’s the message of the book: you’re in a great conflict. Be encouraged. You will triumph at the end. You will conquer. You will win. You’ve already conquered, so to speak, if you belong to Christ. So hang on and then don’t compromise. I think that’s a very powerful message to us today, because when pressure comes—and I’m not a prophet, but the world’s in a bad state today [Laughter]—when that pressure comes, we’re tempted to compromise, just as the early church was.
He says in all the letters, “This is for all the churches”. I interpret that as yes, it’s for all seven of the churches, but it’s also for all the churches of all time. The message is for us as well.
The end of Revelation
PO: The Book of Revelation ends with this wonderful picture of the new creation. As you’ve worked on that part of the book, I wonder how your faith has been strengthened as you’ve considered the new creation.
TS: Yeah. It’s such a lovely, beautiful and hope-giving picture. I think that’s the primary role it’s played in my life: it’s given me hope. Hope gives joy. We have an assurance that we will see our God face to face. We enjoy fellowship with him now, but as John says in 1 John, we’ll see him as he is (1 John 3:2). I think that’s the main purpose of the new creation: our fellowship with God will be deeper, richer and more profound than it is now. That’s our hope. It’s a great encouragement to us.
Then I would say Revelation seizes our imagination with these images. John paints a picture of the new creation—that it’s inexpressibly beautiful and lovely. The gold and the pearls—all of that is designed to give us a picture of a beauty that is like listening to a very beautiful piece of music.
Galatians
PO: Wonderful. Well, Tom, we’re very thankful for your time with us on the podcast. We’re also very thankful for the work that you’ve done on this book. We have listeners from all over the place, but we have a number of listeners based in Sydney, where Moore College and the Centre for Christian Living is based. We’re very much looking forward to your visit to Moore College in August. You’re going to be delivering the Annual Moore College Lectures on Galatians. Can you give us a little bit of a teaser or taster? What excites you about Paul’s letter to the Galatians?
TS: Yeah. Well, Peter, I’m really looking forward to being with you. I think Galatians is fascinating because Paul’s under attack and the gospel is under attack. In the first two chapters, Paul has to defend himself and defend the gospel. To defend the gospel, he has to defend himself. Then in the midst of this opposition, where there’s this conflict over what the nature of the gospel is, he unpacks what the gospel is. The gospel is our life. Then in the last two chapters, he focuses on what this means for our daily lives—the power of the Spirit in our day-to-day lives. Again, I’m very struck with Trinitarian things these days: the Father, the Son and the Spirit play a central role in that gospel in Galatians.
PO: Wonderful.
Conclusion
PO: Well, we’re looking forward to seeing you, Lord-willing, in August, and we’re very thankful for your time on the podcast. Thank you, Tom!
TS: Thank you, Peter!
[Music]
PO: To benefit from more resources from the Centre for Christian Living, please visit ccl.moore.edu.au, where you’ll find a host of resources, including past podcast episodes, videos from our live events and articles published through the Centre. We’d love for you to subscribe to our podcast and for you to leave us a review so more people can discover our resources.
On our website, we also have an opportunity for you to make a tax deductible donation to support the ongoing work of the Centre.
We always benefit from receiving questions and feedback from our listeners, so if you’d like to get in touch, you can email us at ccl@moore.edu.au.
As always, I would like to thank Moore College for its support of the Centre for Christian Living, and to thank to my assistant, Karen Beilharz, for her work in editing and transcribing the episodes. The music for our podcast was generously provided by James West.
[Music]
Endnotes
1 Peter said “reader” in the audio.
Scripture quotations are from The ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), copyright © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
Photo by Yosi Prihantoro on Unsplash
