On the CCL podcast, we’ve been exploring the topic of “Neurodivergence and the Christian life” in a special three-part series. In Part 1, we opened up the issue and heard many wonderful and moving stories from neurodivergent people about their experiences, and the questions and issues that arise from their experiences—especially in relation to Christianity, the Christian life and church life. In Part 2, we looked at what the Bible has to say about these questions, and how to think about these things from the perspective of God and his revelation about his world and our lives through the themes of Creation and the Fall; ability, the Spirit and weakness; and community and the body of Christ.
In this final episode of our series, we return to the experiences of neurodivergent people and to the questions we have about how neurodivergence affects our lives, families and churches as Christians, and we explore some paths forward.
Useful links:
- Grant Macaskill, Autism and the Church: Bible, theology, and community (Waco, Texas: Baylor University Pres, 2019).
- Resources, Centre for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.
- An Extraordinary Normal: Substack by Kate Morris.
- Neurodivergence, Family and Faith podcast with Kate Morris and Dave Whittingham
- “How a late ADHD diagnosis is growing my understanding of God, faith and self” (Brooke Hazelgrove)
- ADHD foundation Australia
- Upcoming event: “Post diagnosis: the relief and the grief” with Lindy Hadges (Sat 27 Sep 2-4pm; free). Event booking page.
- Autism Awareness Australia
- Youthworks College offers a unit on “Children and young people with disability and neurodivergence” as part of undergraduate and postgraduate study, which aims to provide biblical and theological perspectives, and inclusive practices for children and young people with disability and neurodivergence in a range of social and ministry contexts.
- Support the work of the Centre
Runtime: 40:08 min.
Transcript
Please note: This transcript has been checked against the audio and lightly edited, but still may contain errors. If quoting, please compare with the original audio.
[00:00:00] Tony Payne: Welcome to the third and final episode of our special Centre for Christian Living podcast series on “Neurodivergence and the Christian life”. I’m Tony Payne, the Director of the Centre for Christian Living. It’s great to have you with us again. I do hope that you’ve had a chance to listen to episodes 1 and 2, and let me recommend that you do so before you listen to this episode, if that’s at all possible.
[00:00:22] In those first two episodes, we set the scene, interrogated the question that we’re asking and examining, and also looked at the Bible and its theology and what it has to tell us. And in this final episode, we’ll be turning to think more deliberately and more practically about neurodivergence and the Christian life.
[Music]
Series recap
[00:00:54] Tony Payne: And so to Part 3 of our three-part series on “Neurodivergence and the Christian life”. In case you haven’t listened to episodes 1 and 2, or in case your memory needs a bit of a refreshing, here’s a quick recap of the story so far. In episode 1, we interrogated the issue of neurodivergence. We listened to the stories of neurodivergent people, parents of neurodivergent kids, gospel ministers who are neurodivergent who are coming to terms with what that means for their ministry. And we also pulled back and thought more broadly medically, culturally, socially about the nature of neurodivergence as a real thing in our culture and in our lives, and the different perspectives that people bring to it. And so, episode 1 was very much a matter of interrogating and understanding this issue, and clarifying what the questions were that we have about neurodivergence in our lives, especially as Christians and in our churches.
[00:01:45] In episode 2, we turned to the Bible to see what God, the creator of all of us and the revealer of the truth about our world—what he has to say about this important question. We looked at four important biblical and theological themes, and saw that even though the Bible doesn’t mention neurodivergence as a subject explicitly, it has a lot to teach us about the nature of ourselves as human beings, as God’s creations, as recipients of God’s grace and kindness, and as recipients too of his Holy Spirit, who draws us together in churches.
[00:02:17] And so, in this final episode, we come back to neurodivergence itself. We come back to the experience of neurodivergent people and to the questions that we have about how neurodivergence affects our lives and our families and our churches as Christians.
A transformed framework
[00:02:30] Tony Payne: And perhaps the first thing we should notice is that with the theological framework of the Bible in mind, we come back to think about neurodivergence with fresh eyes—with a renewed and transformed mind, with a different framework for thinking about neurodivergence than the frameworks that the world provides.
[00:02:47] There are two main frameworks that the world uses to think about neurodivergence. They both have their strengths. But they both are inadequate on their own terms. One of them is I guess you could call the medical model of understanding neurodivergence. That is, it sees neurodivergence as a disorder or a disability that is to be understood medically, scientifically, and to be treated and cured and alleviated through various medical means.
[00:03:13] Now, this is a valid and worthwhile perspective, and has important things to say. But most neurodivergent people would say that it’s not an adequate way of describing their experience or describing what neurodivergence is—to see it entirely in negative terms as disorder and disability, as a divergence from the norm, as something that is somehow not normal and not healthy. As we saw often in episode 1, there are many strengths and positives to do with being neurodivergent, both for neurodivergent people themselves and within families and within churches. To see it entirely negatively—entirely as a disorder—doesn’t seem to do it justice.
[00:03:50] On the other hand, the second main framework that’s used for thinking about neurodivergence in our culture is more of a political lens or a cultural lens that sees neurodivergence not as a disorder or as a disability. In fact, that language is studiously avoided. Instead, it sees it as a social phenomenon—as a matter of human rights and political power—in which one group, the majority group, the majority social matrix, has marginalised and mistreated another group—othered them, excluded them—and the problem really is one of access and politics and power and understanding.
[00:04:25] Now this second framework also is valid, and says something very real and true about the nature of the power dynamics of our society and the mistreatment and alienation that many neurodivergent people feel. However, it also is inadequate, because it doesn’t have the resources to speak really honestly and straightforwardly about the negatives—about the problems and dysfunctions of neurodivergent life. There’s almost an overly positive kind of euphemistic reframing of neurodivergence as not being in any sense disordered or dysfunctional, but simply as being different.
[00:04:59] The great thing about listening to what God says about us and our world is that it allows us to speak the truth about us and our world. In this case, it allows us to recognise the positives of the neurodivergent experience and what’s good about God creating all of us as different people with different strengths, while also being clear-eyed and honest about the dysfunctions and problems of life in a fallen world.
[00:05:23] In episode 2, we heard the testimony of Laura about how Psalm 139 speaks to her of the goodness of herself and her own body as God’s creation.
[00:05:34] Laura: One of my favourite Psalms, Psalm 139:13-14, says, “For you formed my inward parts. You knitted me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you for I’m fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works. My soul knows it very well.” And I just find that a great comfort—that God created me intentionally and that he cares about every part.
[00:05:56] Tony Payne: The Bible celebrates and praises God for the multifaceted diversity of his good creation—of all the different strengths and abilities and characteristics that he gives to each one of us. However, the Bible is also very clear-eyed and honest about what is fallen and dysfunctional and disordered in our world, including all of us, whether we are classed as neurotypical or neurodivergent.
[00:06:21] So neurotypical people have a great many strengths and abilities of an incredibly diverse nature, and also a great variety of dysfunctions and disorders and disabilities in their lives—brokenness in their lives of many different kinds. And so, to say that neurodivergent people also have a great variety of strengths and abilities, and also their own particular dysfunctions and disorders, is simply to say that we’re all subject to the judgement and effects of the Fall and of the continuing effects of sin in the world. Christian theology gives us a framework to say both of these things honestly and with grace.
[00:07:00] And speaking of grace, that brings us to a second main way we can come back to neurodivergence with fresh eyes, with a transformed mind, because the gospel helps us to understand ourselves as recipients of grace. It reveals the truth about us: that we’re all weak and dysfunctional, that we’re all sinners, that we’re all in need of redemption, and that in Christ, we become a new person and a new people.
[00:07:28] And so, my value and my worth is not tied up with what I can achieve or what I can do, nor is it diminished by what I can’t do or can’t achieve. But my value and worth—who I really am—is determined by the fact that God created me and loved me in his Son. And so, whether we’re neurotypical or neurodivergent, we’re not constituted by our ability or our lack of abilities, but by the fact that we’re a person loved and redeemed in Christ.
[00:07:56] In that sense, Christianity is not a system of merit, and it deeply and profoundly undercuts the meritocracy that dominates our world, and that makes neurodivergent people often feel marginalised and alienated. The gospel as it’s understood and lived out, protects us from both sides of this trap. On the one hand, it prevents us from looking down on some neurodivergent people, because they can do less than other people or have particular dysfunctions of their own. But it also prevents neurodivergent people from thinking that in order to be valuable and worthwhile, they have to have some kind of ability or superpower that is valued by other people. The gospel and the Holy Spirit lead me to a new life, a life in which I’m already loved and valuable beyond measure because of the love of Christ. It sets me free to stop thinking about myself and instead to start focusing on loving others and serving them.
[00:08:52] Alex: I’m a lot happier when I don’t make my identity the core thing about autism, like searching inside myself to find the truth. That makes me absolutely miserable in the end. But when I’m like, “God made me. My identity is that I’m his daughter. And he made me perfectly and he knows me perfectly. And even if no one else gets me today—if everyone misunderstands everything I say—I’m still perfectly known and perfectly loved by him.” And, like, I think that just gives me a comfort and a help with the loneliness. Like, it’s still quite hard, feeling sometimes, like, other Christians don’t quite understand. But we serve a God who does.
[00:09:30] Tony Payne: That was Alex, talking about the profound change in awareness that comes when the gospel of Jesus invades your life—when you realise that your old life is over and a new life has begun, a life that is hid with Christ in God, as Paul says in Colossians 3. And this profound change of awareness is true for neurotypical and neurodivergent people in exactly the same way, and it leads in turn to a new life, a life in which we put to death the evil habits and behaviours of our old selves, and put on a new way of living.
[00:10:03] In this sense, it’s very important to say as we think about neurodivergence and the Christian life and what it means practically, that practically, it means a great deal the same for a neurotypical person and a neurodivergent person. For all of us, it’s a life of thanksgiving and of praise, a life of faith and love and hope, a life of transformation in our thinking and in our loves and in our actions.
Self-control
[00:10:27] Tony Payne: But there is a particular aspect of the Christian life that neurodivergent people often find particularly challenging. What are we to do and what are we to think when some aspect of our neurodivergence—some consequence of the particular way our brain is wired—seems to make the Christian life very difficult—seems to sabotage us?
[00:10:46] For example, one of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control. What do we do when our whole body seems to prevent us being self-controlled—when we have a meltdown or an implosion or an explosion, in which we don’t seem to have any control over ourselves whatsoever, and during which we often say or do things that we profoundly regret later on? In one of my conversations with Kate Morris, she gave this example of a Christian friend of hers who deals with these issues in this way.
[00:11:16] Kate Morris: I asked one lady who—she works in ministry, she’s autistic, she’s also ADHD. She experiences meltdowns. I asked her to explain to me what she sees is the relationship between sin and what’s going on in her body. And she said to me that—she kind of asked the question, “Is it that because you understand that my body has experienced such pressure from being at church or something that it’s melting down and therefore I’m absolved from all responsibility?” And she said, that’s not really how we approach things. She suggested that we live in a broken world with broken bodies—with wayward hearts inclined to sin—and we’re going to sin. And when we sin, we need to apologise. We need to say sorry.
[00:12:01] And so, for her, when she has a meltdown, she asks that her family is understanding to her and sees what’s been going on in her life. But she will say sorry for what she’s done and work on rebuilding those relationships and hearing the family’s experiences in that.
[00:12:18] And she’s also working with an occupational therapist and a psychologist in order to bring down those triggers—in order to identify when she’s building up to a meltdown, which is a loving approach, so that she can actually work to not getting to the meltdown stage quite so easily.
[00:12:34] Tony Payne: What’s striking and impressive about this lady’s response to her own meltdowns and to the effects of those meltdowns is just how thoroughly Christian it is. That is, it recognises what the New Testament also recognises: that our bodies, our flesh, the presence of sin living within us, will often lead us to do things that, really, in our truer selves, we don’t want to do—that sense of “I do not do the good that I wish I would do, and I do the very thing I wish I wouldn’t do” that’s there in Romans 7 and it’s certainly also there in Galatians 5. The Christian life is a constant battle between the bad habits and actions of our bodies—our flesh, our former selves, our old selves, our old habits, what our bodies do almost on their own sometimes, it seems—and the new life that’s been planted within us—the new mind, the new heart that has a new set of loves. And the lady that Kate talks about responds in a way that we should respond to all sin in our lives: she laments the wrong things that she’s done; she takes responsibility for what she’s done; she apologises and seeks to make redress where she can; she shows herself and others some grace; she remembers that God forgives, and she forgives herself for the way that her body has led her astray; and she also seeks to learn something and to grow through the experience. What was it that led to that loss of control? What triggers or factors in my life led me to that point where I did lose control and behaved poorly?
[00:14:01] This is where a diagnosis of neurodivergence—of ADHD or autism—can actually be quite helpful in living the Christian life. And many of the neurodivergent people we spoke to testified to this—that it gave them an understanding of themselves and of why they reacted in certain ways in certain situations that actually helped them to manage their lives and their reactions—to be thoughtful and proactive, to avoid the kinds of circumstances or triggers that often led to difficulties.
[00:14:30] In all of this, it’s not as if any of us, neurotypical or neurodivergent, will reach perfection in this life. The key is to continue to make progress. “Let everyone see your progress,” Paul said to Timothy in his letter to him, as he set an example for the saints in Ephesus. Start with where you are—with your own particular strengths and weaknesses—and let everyone see your progress, no matter how small and faltering that progress might be. Put off the old and put on the new.
The challenges of parenting
[00:15:00] Tony Payne: Well, let’s move on from the challenges of the Christian life and how it’s lived to the challenges of parenting. How does a biblical and theological lens help us understand and respond to the particular challenges of parenting neurodivergent kids? Callum was one of the parents we interviewed for this project, and he had this to say.
[00:15:20] Calum: I don’t think I’ve asked God “Why?” more in my life than I have since becoming a parent and understanding more about my boys’ needs. I think for me, as a Christian growing up and as a Christian looking forward to parenthood, I had these visions and expectations about serving in ministry alongside my kids, bringing my kids along to holiday clubs and serving with them, going to church with them while serving in kids programs, having a vision of ministry together. As someone who’d done a lot of kids’ ministry, I was looking forward to that.
[00:15:53] And I wonder why the children that God’s blessed me with aren’t children for whom that’s going to be a positive environment to serve in ministry together. They’re not people whose sensory ability says, “Yeah, I can be around lots of big groups of people.” That’s just not a space that’s going to be conducive for them. And my selfishness driving me to say, “This is how I thought God was going to drive my life.” But instead, having the humility to say, “Well, no, God’s given me these great gifts of children. As a parent of them, I’m going to serve where he’s placed me.” And I think, I mean, I’m what, nine plus years into being a parent and still working that out.
[00:16:28] Tony Payne: Understanding his children’s neurodivergence as both gift and challenge—as positive and wonderful in certain circumstances, and incredibly difficult in others—this was not only Callum’s experience, but the testimony of many parents we spoke to of neurodivergent kids.
[00:16:45] Among them was Kate Morris, and Kate had some really helpful things to say, not only about the practicalities of raising and dealing with neurodivergent kids, but also of the whole new perspective that the gospel gives to parenting a neurodivergent family.
[00:17:00] Kate Morris: I think for me as a parent, the biggest thing is it reminds me that I’m a person who needs grace. I’m sinful. I’m broken. I’m inclined to serve myself more than others. I’m inclined to look at my capacity as the place where I’m going to save myself. I’m inclined to be self-sufficient and autonomous. I think I see my sinfulness in being a parent, and I know that Jesus is the solution for my brokenness—for my evil heart—and I know that he is working to mature me—with the work of the Holy Spirit, is changing me, and I see that as I parent my children.
[00:17:43] I think it gives me a really important understanding of who my children are as well. They’re my children. But they’re God’s children: even more than that, they’re God’s children. And I can sit knowing that their futures are in the hands of the one who made the universe—the hands of the one who has given us salvation and redemption—and I can entrust them to the good Father. When I see I’m not a good mother, I know I can entrust them to him.
[00:18:14] And I think too, it reminds me that what I want for my children isn’t to look like everyone else. I want them to look like Jesus, and that’s actually my aim. And I know that they’re not saved through me. No matter how good a parent or how bad a parent I am, I’m not going to win them salvation or lose them salvation. I look to Jesus for everything they need. And that’s remarkably freeing.
[00:18:42] I think it gives a good perspective, too, on the times—there are times when the challenges, they just bring such grief, whether because the whole family is suffering or whether one of my children is suffering. There is grief in this and anguish and pain, and I know that together, we can look to God for comfort. And I know that he promises to give us wisdom when we ask for wisdom. And so, even in those times of great difficulty, I know that we’re safe and I know that we’re not falling outside of God’s plan even in those times.
The challenge of discipline
[00:19:17] Tony Payne: The gospel of grace does give us a new perspective on everything in life, including raising our kids and raising neurodivergent kids. But it’s not just a new perspective; there are still practical challenges—the challenges of disciplining and raising these particular kids with their particular strengths and weaknesses. Those of us who are parents will testify that this is the case in every family—that it’s extraordinary how different our kids can be from one another and how there needs to be different approaches to different children, depending on their particular individual characteristics. And this is the case with neurodivergent kids, perhaps even more so. Here’s Kate again, reflecting on the complications of disciplining neurodivergent children.
[00:19:58] Kate Morris: It is complicated, because with children who are neurodivergent, a lot of them will experience complications and triggers and difficulties—particularly outside the home, but also in the home—that will mean that they have a pressure build-up that can be quite complicated. So I think one of the most challenging aspects of parenting a neurodivergent child is if they experience meltdowns or shutdowns—particularly meltdowns can be complex.
[00:20:26] So meltdowns: unfortunately, we use that term interchangeably with tantrums, and it’s not a tantrum. A tantrum is where a child wants a cookie and you can end the tantrum by giving them a cookie. They want something; if they don’t get it, then they will kick and scream. A meltdown is quite different, actually. We understand now that a meltdown is a brain explosion. It’s closer to a dam break. It’s closer to a nuclear meltdown or something like that. It’s something where the pressure has built to the point that they can no longer hold it in.
[00:20:56] So a lot of parents will notice these meltdowns happen in the car as they’re heading home from something, where the child has held it in, or when they get home. And it’s really hard, because this is the moment where a family would love to just relax together. But for some people, relaxing means releasing a lot of tension and build-up.
[00:21:14] So I think there are some stages of our approach to meltdowns, and the end point, the last stage, is actually where the discipline happens, I think. But I’m interested to hear what other parents say on this as well.
[00:21:28] So there are three stages of a meltdown, but I’m adding a fourth onto the end. The first stage is where the pressure has been building, and you can often see in your child, or perhaps they can identify in themselves, that they have experienced so many triggers that the pressure is building. So for some children or adults, it will come across as sweating, heart palpitations, jitteriness, perhaps an inability to sit still. They might rock back and forwards. They might lie on the ground and cover their ears and their eyes.
[00:21:57] And if you can notice—as a parent, if we can notice these things in our child and identify some ways to comfort them, then sometimes you can actually release the pressure without a meltdown. And so a loving thing to do as a parent is actually to be on the lookout for these and to be on the lookout for ways to help them. And so that can be a cooperative approach with your child at times where they’re not experiencing this pressure build-up. “What would you like me to do when you’re experiencing that? How can I identify that in you? How can you communicate to me that you’re experiencing that?” There can be things that will calm them down using the various senses that parents can figure out with their child.
[00:22:36] But if it can’t be stopped, then you’re in the stage of the meltdown, and it’s really important for parents to understand, as much as we might want to say, “Stop. Stop. Don’t do it. You’re being naughty. You’re going to have a punishment later,” or something like this, that is absolutely the opposite of what a child needs. And so, again, it’s a collaborative approach. What does your child want in these times? For many, they want to have co-regulation.
[00:22:59] So whether that’s you sitting in the same room, breathing loudly and saying things like, “This will end. I understand you’re feeling distraught. I understand you’re upset. This will end.” Or perhaps, “I love you. I’m never going to stop loving you. God’s never going to stop loving you. I’m right here.” And in order to do this safely, it might mean removing siblings. It might mean removing unsafe things around them. And before meltdowns, we can practice these things with a child, teaching them through cushions, not objects. “Punch the couch; don’t punch yourself. Don’t pull out your hair; instead, pull on the curtains.” And we can work out replacement behaviours.
[00:23:39] And then when they’re coming down out of the meltdown, it can be tempting to jump in with the discipline right there, right? “You did this and this and this. Here’s the consequence.” But you risk going back into the meltdown. The pressure hasn’t completely come down yet. And so in that moment, a loving parenting thing to do is to calm with them, perhaps hold them if they want. A lot of children don’t want to be held still. Perhaps reading a story, hearing an audio book together, having the air conditioning on, weighted blankets—whatever the child and you have figured out.
[00:24:08] And then it’s after this has really ended that you can start to think about what the next step can be. And I would suggest too, that for parents, you need to make sure that you’ve calmed down too, ‘cause these can be massively difficult moments for parents. And it’s loving to speak to our children and help them to understand the impacts of what they have done.
[00:24:28] Tony Payne: There’s so much more to be said on this subject, of course, and Kate’s Substack, which is called “An extraordinary normal”—we’ll put the details of that in the show notes—is a great place to start in having that conversation and in finding your way to other resources on this topic.
Neurodivergence and church life
[00:24:42] Tony Payne: But let’s move on to the third and final practical area we want to consider, and that’s neurodivergence and church life. Church is simultaneously wonderful and difficult for many neurodivergent adults and kids. It’s a place of grace and gospel, where we meet the God who explains us to ourselves.
[00:25:01] But churches can also be very unwelcoming places, unfortunately, for neurodivergent adults and kids, often without meaning to or realising it. The lights, the sounds, the sheer number of people, the constant chatter, having to relate to lots of different people, one after the other. Church can be a really challenging environment for neurodivergent adults and kids. And what is most often needed is simply some understanding. Here’s Alex’s experience.
[00:25:29] Alex: Yeah. Actually recently, like, I went to a doctor’s appointment, and I was like, “Oh, sorry, I don’t—I’m not in a head space where I can process eye contact right now. Do you mind if I just keep my sunnies on?” And he’s like, “Oh, no worries at all. Do you want me to dim the lights?” And he just dimmed the lights slightly. And that experience of that doctor’s appointment was the best doctor’s appointment I’ve ever had in my life. And yet, the thing that he did was, like, so small, but the amount of difference it made was, like, crazy.
[00:25:56] And even, like, the other day in my Bible study, I was saying to the girls in my Bible study, like, “What do you think I should do on a day where I just want to, like, rock backwards and forwards? My brain can’t process something to the level, but the amount that I need to stim to be able to process the environment around me is really intense.” And they’re like, “No, still come to church. But maybe just sit in the foyer where you can still hear the message.” But, like, they’re encouraging me: it is okay to do something that will probably—other people might not understand it at first, because they don’t see me do that, because I wait until I get home and then I do that, and by that point, I’m so overloaded that I feel awful and horrible. Whereas, last week, I did that: I just rocked backwards and forwards the whole time. And at the end of doing that, afterwards, I was in a point where my brain, for once after church, I could actually process conversations we were having properly. Like, I took off my glasses. I had really encouraging conversations. And I went home and felt good for once.
[00:26:53] And usually, my experience of church is by that point, I feel really, really awful. And it’s not because anything has gone wrong; it’s because my brain gets to a point where there’s so much stimulation that I can’t process it. And I will stim, but I’ll do mini stims that are more, like, probably socially acceptable, because I know rocking backwards and forwards will make me look like—to some people, they’ll be, like, “Oh, she never does that. She looks like she’s having a mental breakdown”, because neurotypical people do that when they’re very upset, whereas autistic people just do that when they need to process something—can do it when they’re upset, can do it when they’re happy.
[00:27:26] So yeah, it was really nice to be given that permission that no, it’s okay to be yourself at church. You are welcome, and the level that you’ll distract other people, it might distract someone, but it’s okay if that’s what you need. Like, yeah.
[00:27:41] Tony Payne: When church is working well—when we function as a body where all the parts do seek the benefit of the other parts and contribute each in their own way—it can be a beautiful thing. Here’s Sarah talking about how small group studies—small group Bible studies—can be a really encouraging place for her as an autistic person, especially if they’re managed with a bit of care.
[00:28:04] Sarah: So I find that I really benefit from studying the Bible in a small group. For example, having that consistent structure, like, whatever method you want to follow, whether it’s the SOAP method or the five Rs from the Uncover series, or you’re working through some study guide for the Book of John, or whatever it happens to be. Just having that consistency is helpful.
[00:28:26] I also find—this might be a contentious issue, but some autistic people withdraw and don’t really participate. But then there’s the other extreme where they kind of dominate the whole conversation. And I’m probably just as bad, but when there’s more than one autistic person in the group, and we’re all talking and butting in over each other and then going on tangents, it’s really important, I find, to have a strong moderator who just gently pulls the group back and goes, “Oh, good points, but maybe we should get back to the topic, ‘cause we don’t want to be here all night.”
[00:29:02] So I actually find, ‘cause I read a book years ago called Making Small Groups Work by Cloud and Townsend, and they made a point that the poorer the social skills in the group, the more need for structure. So if you’ve got six neurotypical people who have great social skills, you probably don’t need as much structure. But when you have autistic people in the group, that structure and that moderator in the middle—that facilitator who just gently redirects the conversation back—I find is really helpful and it helps people feel safe also, ‘cause with autism, we can accidentally make a comment that’s hurtful to someone and not realise how it came across with the tone or whatever. So just having someone to be in the middle—preferably a neurotypical person, I’m going to say—who can just smooth over those bumps and just make sure the other person is feeling okay. Not attack the person who said it, but just, you know, that—the social skills that we sometimes lack. So yeah, I find that’s helpful.
Taking action
[00:30:09] Tony Payne: So you might be a church pastor or a church member, and you are thinking at this point, “Well, yes, this all sounds great. We do need to address this question. This is something we haven’t thought about nearly enough. What can we do? Where should we start? What sort of action plan should we put in place?” In one of the conversations I had with Kate Morris, I asked her almost exactly this question as someone who’s navigated this in a number of contexts. And this was her answer.
[00:30:36] Kate Morris: The approach needs to be the approach that we have to everyone who comes into our midst. We need to be loving like Jesus loves, asking questions of people, hearing their experience without jumping into put them in these boxes that we love to put people into, without jumping to fix the problem, without comparing, beginning with believing and asking what supports they might need, offering supports that you might be able to offer, and working out how this family or this person can be in our community, serving alongside us, working with us as a community, rather than segregating people out as separate people who we support, understanding that we’re all part of this body.
[00:31:20] I think some practical things on the ground: I think most churches would love to have a checklist where I write down 50 things, and as long as they can tick off these 50 things, then they know they’ve got a church that’s going to welcome neurodivergent people and we’re done. And isn’t it wonderful that we don’t have that checklist? Because if we did, I might put something on that like, “Most neurodivergent people with sensory sensitivities find fluorescent lights very overstimulating, and for some, actually painful, so therefore change your lights to LEDs.” Churches can do that. They can tick that off. And then they think, “Well, I’m done on lighting.” But for another person, those lights are bright, or the LED has a particular flick to it that they can’t stand, or how come lights are on everywhere and there’s no dark place for me? And so, we don’t want a tick or cross thing. It has to be that we approach this with understanding.
[00:32:12] And I think a way to do that is for all of us to commit to learning what we can in this area so that we can ask things. “How’s the lighting for you?” And not be surprised when someone says, “Did you notice that in the kids’ church room you can hear the electricity in the walls?” “Oh, can you? Great. Well, let’s work out what we’re going to do about that.”
[00:32:29] I think it’s hard to, when there will be families who know that they need support, know that church is really hard and overstimulating, and don’t necessarily know what to ask for, and that’s where, if we’ve got some experience in this, if we’ve got some understanding in this, we might be able to gently begin, “Well, shall we try this? Shall we try that? For some families, this works.”
[00:32:51] I think the underlying principle of being curious—I think that’s important—but I think also being prepared to be flexible on things that we might hold so dear to us. We have a lot of things in our church culture here in Australia that we think is natural or that is biblical, and it’s not necessarily natural or biblical. We can actually let them go. Can someone enter from a side door and not say hello to anyone and sit down? Would we allow that? Can we be flexible enough for that? We like our churches to fill from the front: would we be flexible enough for a family or a person to sit in the exact same seat every single week, so that they don’t have to reprocess angles and lighting and so on? Would we be flexible enough to take one of our rooms in our church building and use it as a sensory space that can be quiet if someone needs to recover? Can we be flexible with our kids’ church programs in order to allow a child to spend some time in a tent or on a rug or something? Will we put people in front of programs and in front of places? And I think if we have these sort of underlying our approach to people, I think it will help in welcoming families into our church and helping them to know that they belong and to feel supported.
Conclusion
[00:34:06] Tony Payne: Well, that’s a wonderful answer. It seems to me, and a fitting place, perhaps, to draw this final episode towards a close. It’s not really so surprising, is it, that the basic practical response to neurodivergence in our lives and homes and churches is some form or other of Christ-like love that springs from the gospel of grace—in how we understand ourselves and live the Christian life, no matter what our particular strengths or weaknesses or dysfunctions might be; in how we parent our children, no matter what their individual strengths and weaknesses and dysfunctions might be; and in how we love and serve one another as church communities. At each point, our practical response is founded on the central truths of the gospel—that each of us are God’s good though tragically fallen and rebellious creatures; that in the gospel of Christ, we’re all saved from the judgement of God, saved in the same way by his merit and his saving death, not anything we do or anything we contribute, and that the new life we live in Christ is a life of faith—being active in love; of thinking about others, rather than ourselves; in putting to death the lingering bad behaviour of our old lives; and of loving and welcoming others with all their different needs and contributions in our fellowship.
[00:35:25] There’s so much more we could say, of course, about this subject. But our hope in this podcast series has been to open up the issue of neurodivergence within the Christian community and in the Christian life, not to provide the final word.
[00:35:37] To continue that conversation, we’d love you to get in touch with us and ask your questions and make your comments on this podcast series, and I’ll tell you how to do that in just a moment. But we’d also love you to seek out good resources and conversations, and continue the thought process yourselves in various ways, and we’ll put some suggested resources and next steps in our show notes.
[00:35:58] But perhaps it’s appropriate if we give the final word in this episode in this series to one of the neurodivergent people we spoke to—to Peter.
[00:36:06] Peter: What we want to do is have other Christians to recognise that we are made slightly different, even though they can’t physically see it—that mentally, inside us we are different. Our brains are wired differently. And even though we have weaknesses in how we communicate and how we act towards people, we also have enormous strengths. And so, try and embrace us not only for our weaknesses, but also for our strengths. And I think that’s something that Christians should do, and as somebody with Aspergers and as a Christian, it’s something I ask other Christians to do, and it’s something that I do on a regular basis.
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[00:37:12] Karen Beilharz: Digital technology like smartphones has revolutionised the way we navigate daily life and the way our whole society functions. We have supercomputers in our hands that can answer almost any question instantly and perform many tasks that make life easier. Such technology has its downsides, like the explosion of accessibility to pornography and the prevalence of online bullying. Even so, our stance as Christians is often something like, “Let’s use this technology wisely, but not abuse it”, as if the technology is simply a neutral instrument. But the good things of our world, like technology or money, can become much more than this. They can become master teachers that dominate and disciple us.
[00:37:56] In the next Centre for Christian Living biblical ethics workshop, we want to do more than share helpful tips on godly smartphone use, although such tips are useful. We want to zoom out and consider how technology disciples us—how it profoundly reorders our attitudes, operating beliefs and behaviours, not just personally, but on a society-wide level.
[00:38:16] Put your phones on silent and join the conversation on Monday 27th of October 2025 at 7:30 pm. You can register and find out more on the Centre for Christian Living website: ccl.moore.edu.au. That’s ccl.moore.edu.au.
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Outro
[00:38:52] Tony Payne: Well, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast from Moore College. For a whole lot more from the Centre for Christian Living, just head over to the CCL website: that’s ccl.moore.edu.au, where you’ll find a stack of resources, including every past podcast episode all the way back to 2017, videos from our live events and articles that we’ve published through the Centre.
[00:39:18] And while you’re there on the website, we also have an opportunity for you to make an tax-deductible donation to support the ongoing work of the Centre here at Moore College.
[00:39:27] We’d also love you to subscribe to the podcast and to leave a review so that people can discover our podcast and our other resources. And we always love and benefit from receiving your feedback and questions. Please get in touch: you can email us at [email protected].
[00:39:47] Many thanks to Karen Beilharz from the Communications Team here at Moore College for all her work in transcribing and editing and producing this podcast; to James West for the music; and to you, dear listeners, for joining us each week. Thank you for listening.
[00:40:02] I’m Tony Payne. ‘Bye for now.
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Image by Gerd Altmann from Pixabay (generated using AI).
